Jordan: Up on Parliament Hill these days– or actually, I guess not on Parliament Hill– it’s kind of a whole new world for our Members of Parliament.
News Clip: But we took a moment to reflect and to look at how we could best help you. Mr. Speaker, we can’t hear him. So Mr. Speaker, I’m not sure if you can hear me right now, but testing– Order order, Speaker, point of order. Oh, I can’t hear anything. It’s just silence. Thank you very much. Mr Speaker. Sorry, there’s an issue with the translation. Okay, I’ll speak louder. Can you hear me okay? We hear you fine, Mr. Johnson. You turned off– you’re muted again.
Jordan: In another, perhaps comforting way, it’s also good to know that virtually or not, some things never changed.
News Clip: So what we’ve called on the government to do is have a more progressive approach to the CERB and have a gradual type of reduction of the benefits so that it’s always better off for Canadians to work.
Jordan: That clip you just heard was at least partly the sound of partisan politics returning to Ottawa, after mostly vanishing as the government battled the first wave of COVID-19. To be clear, that doesn’t mean that criticism of the government should be suspended during a pandemic. It’s probably more important now than ever. And with incredibly complex policies now rolled out in a matter of days, it is fair to say there are probably some holes in them. So we will take a look at those holes today, as we head back– virtually, of course– to Parliament Hill to get a sense of how the aid packages for Canadians have evolved since they were first announced, what’s available now, what might or might not become available in the future, and of course to see if our MPs have figured out the mute button yet. First though, I will unmute Claire so that she can give you everything you need to be up to date today.
Claire: Canada’s Chief Public Health officer, Dr. Theresa Tam says, the spread of COVID-19 is slowing in Canada, but the number of deaths is on the rise. And she says, that’s because of outbreaks at longterm care homes. More than three quarters of the deaths are linked to those facilities. She also talked about testing capacity. Two weeks ago she said she believes the country could do 60,000 tests a day, but lately Canada’s been averaging 28,000 tests a day. She says provinces can help by extending the criteria for who can get tested. British Columbia has laid out some plans for easing restrictions around COVID-19 starting next weekend. The province is allowing group gatherings of more than six people, as long as no one is showing any symptoms of the virus. Also this month, some businesses in BC will be allowed to reopen, including hair salons, retail stores, museums, libraries, and some restaurants. Dr Bonnie Henry, the provinces health officer, says BC has put the brakes on the outbreak, but that they’re not through it yet. And Ontario Premier Doug Ford says the province is moving with cautious optimism in the reopening of garden centers, nurseries, and hardware stores. Ontario is still not technically in its first phase of restarting the economy, which was outlined a few weeks ago, and the emergency orders have been extended until May 19th. As of Wednesday evening, 63,496 cases of COVID-19 in Canada with 4,357 deaths.
Jordan: I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings, and this is The Big Story. Cormac MacSweeney is the Parliament Hill reporter for City News, for Rogers Radio, and every once in a while, for us. And he’s working from home. And so am I, so forgive the toddler noises, but how are you doing Cormac?
Cormac: I’m doing all right. Surviving like everyone else is and in self-isolation.
Jordan: Well, and we’re not the only ones doing this now. So my first question is, just tell me how virtual parliament, for the first time ever, is going.
Cormac: Well, it’s been interesting. I mean, as you know, there have been some troubles, some growing pains as MPs and the House of Commons tries to switch to this, basically a really large Zoom meeting and they’re actually using a version of the Zoom platform to host all of this. So there have been a lot of troubles as people tried to figure it out. There were connectivity issues where people were losing their connection, and that’s unfortunately just a fact of life with a lot of MPs living in rural areas of the country and not having the same sort of connection as you would have, let’s say, in Toronto or Ottawa. A lot of MPs, you know, figuring out the mute button, figuring out the translation button as well, because every time somebody doesn’t hit the right button, it seems they have to pause proceedings to try and deal with it. But overall, I think it’s been working out all right, aside from the technical hiccups that they’ve had, it seems to be rolling along smoothly in terms of having MPs question the Prime Minister and different Cabinet Ministers. And I will note as well that this is not technically a sitting of the House of Commons. It’s technically a sitting of this special COVID-19 committee that involves every MP. And the reason why I point that out is because there’s a difference of procedure. So we don’t have the normal question period where 30 seconds for question, 30 seconds for an answer. Instead because it’s a committee, MPs get about five minutes to question whatever minister, or the Prime Minister, and they can ask as many questions within that time period. And the rule of thumb is, you answer just as long as the question has gone on for. And so it really does allow for a lot more of a substantial debate and a substantial questioning of the cabinet. Because if you want to get a lot of information out of a cabinet minister, keep your questions short and just squeeze in it as as many as you can within a five minute period.
Jordan: So what has the tone of those questions, and this sitting, been like? Because to an observer, it does seem less like the, we’re all in this together tone that we had six weeks ago, you know, when all the aid packages were coming together?
Cormac: Yeah. You hit it right there. You know, at the start of all of this, it seemed like there was going to be no criticism for the Trudeau government right away because this was an unprecedented time and unprecedented measures had to be taken. But slowly over the last number of weeks, we’ve seen the conservative party start this off, where they started questioning the programs being put forward by the government, and in a very public fashion. I would say that for the virtual settings themselves, the tone is actually quite different than what we’ve seen from the news conferences being held by the individual parties. The tone on these virtual sittings in and these Q and A’s that are happening is actually quite different from the grand standing and showmanship you normally expect that of question period. In fact, everyone’s a little bit more toned down and there’s– it’s much more substantial questioning, there’s a lot more information coming out, and I think that’s a great thing. It really shows that without the theatrics that we normally get in question period, there can be a good conversation to be had between opposing sides in the House of Commons. But outside of the virtual settings, exactly as we were discussing, you know, there’s been more criticism for the Trudeau government. People are exposing the gaps in some of the programs that have been announced, and we’re really seeing the ideological differences for how we should be dealing with this pandemic at this time, and the conservatives have started raising more and more of opposition to the Trudeau liberals, as every week has gone on. So it’ll be interesting to see where we go from here, because up until May 25th, we’re working on a system of just having one weekly in-person Q and A in the House of Commons, and then two virtual settings. But the conservatives for a while now have been pushing for as many as four in-person settings each week. And so as we approach May 25th, towards the end of this month, there’ll be more conversations between the opposition parties and the government about how we proceed from here, because there’s still a lot to do. And, you know, June is when normally Parliament would break towards the end of June, for the summer break. But, with this pandemic ongoing, and with it being such a fluid situation, I imagine we might see some more unprecedented changes to the procedures of Parliament as we move forward and continue to deal with this pandemic.
Jordan: So in a second, we’re going to get to some of the real, valid criticisms that have been made about some of these programs and the gaps they create. But I also wanted to ask you, what kind of role has the resumption of the conservative party leadership campaign played in the more partisan nature of some of the stuff outside that special committee? Because that’s the kind of stuff that I’ve been seeing, grabbing headlines and then forcing the Liberals to respond to. And how different is that from what’s actually going on between MPs?
Cormac: I think when it comes to MPs interacting with each other, the arguments over whether Parliament should be sitting or not would have happened regardless of whether there was a leadership race underway. I think the leadership race adds a different dynamic to all of this because you not only have, you know, Andrew Scheer, who’s the outgoing leader, he’s still the leader, but he’s on his way out. What you’re hearing from Peter McKay and Erin O’Toole are different arguments being put forward. And then you have people like Derek Sloan, let’s say. People may remember him because he brought up questions about Dr. Theresa Tam asking whether she works for Canada, or China. I will point out Dr Tam was born in Hong Kong, but has lived much of her life in Canada. She’s worked for the government for a long time. Those comments were described as racist by some, and intolerant. He has defended himself, but not apologize to Dr Tam. And so it’s, it’s created, you know, a different dynamic for how the opposition has been handling this, because each individual leadership candidate has their own opinions on it. And at the start, Andrew Scheer decided not to address those comments from Derek Sloan, because even though he’s an MP within his caucus, because he said he doesn’t address matters in the leadership race. Well, that led to even more criticisms for Andrew Scheer and more troubles and controversies around all of this for the Conservative Party. So. It really is interesting to see how they’re playing out a leadership race at the same time, while trying to deal with this pandemic. But that’s what we’re seeing now. Things have calmed down since that Derek Sloan controversy. But I think you’ll see more and more questions being put to people like Erin O’Toole and Peter McKay. Especially as we see restrictions start to lift in provinces across the country, and more in person rallies or campaign measures come back into swing over the summer. So it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.
Jordan: Well, let’s leave partisanship behind just for now at least, and look at some of the issues behind sort of the more notable fights. First of all, the last time I think we talked to you, was right when the CERB was being rolled out for Canadians who had lost work. Since that’s been rolled out, how many Canadians have taken it, how has it been received, and what’s the criticism around it?
Cormac: Well, 7.5 million Canadians have received at least one payment from the emergency response benefit. That’s quite a bit in a nation of what, 37 million? So a lot of people have been taking– I shouldn’t say taking advantage, they’ve been relying on the CERB for supports during this tough time. And that’s $2,000 a month that people can get. And since we spoke that first time, I mean, there’ve been so many changes, not just to the CERB, but a number of different programs that have come in because the government’s been pushing these things out there quickly and then having to fill in the gaps as people discuss the issues. You know, I got a number of emails from people after we did that first conversation about the CERB, saying, well, do I qualify for this? What about my specific situation? You know, my wife is on maternity leave, can she get the CERB, she was on EI. So all these things sort of pop up, and very unique situations. But people who need the help, who might not be able to get it. And the government has been forced to sort of play whack-a-mole, to deal with a lot of these issues that weren’t fully worked out. But then again, that being said, the government has put forward these programs worth tens of billions of dollars that would normally take, you know, maybe a year to develop and get in place before they would be unveiled. They’re doing it in days. So they did warn that there would be this sort of situation where they’d have to try and continually change things to help those who fall through the cracks. But there has been a lot of criticism around that. The Conservatives have been the big vocal opponents to the way the government has handled this. They’re saying that right now, the CERB as it sort of set up, could act as a disincentive when we start to see provinces start to reopen their economies. And there’s also concerned about rental assistance as well for small businesses. On the other hand, the NDP has said, we needed to have a universal benefit. We needed something that just went out to every Canadian, so we weren’t playing this game of whack-a-mole. And so they said that they really thought that we should just give everybody $2,000 a month, and then next year for those who didn’t need it, you just tax it back at tax time. People who don’t like that idea said that would create a lot of problems and confusion around tax time next year. And it might be better off to just get the help to those who need it the most. But definitely different ideologies on how to deal with all of this. On top of the CERB, you know, we have other things like emergency loans for businesses, up to $40,000. We know that 545,000 small businesses have now received those emergency loans and 110,000 businesses have applied for the wage subsidy, which payments should start arriving now. So a lot of response in terms of people leaning on these programs– people and businesses leaning on these programs for assistance. But they’re not without their criticisms.
Jordan: Well, it’s fascinating to me as you put it, you know, trying to play whack-a-mole with these complicated policies that you’ve drawn up in days, and what is the government saying about what happens with these policies and maybe even with new ones over the next few weeks and months? Are they just going to be continually tinkered with, upgraded, downgraded, rolled back, or are we looking at developing a entirely new ways of helping people that we’ve missed before?
Cormac: Yeah. So that’s, that’s a very interesting question because just in the last few days, the conservatives have started to push on possibly scaling back emergency benefits and even rental assistance for small businesses. But it’s not exactly as you think. So what they’re pushing for is, you know, there are criteria. So under the CERB right now, you have to make a thousand dollars or less per month to qualify for the CERB if you’ve significantly lost a lot of work or you’re completely out of work as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. What they want to do is to increase that amount so that people can get back to work, but also then start scaling down the amount of benefit is going to those Canadians so that there’s still an incentive for them to get back on the job, but they’re not exactly going to be giving up their benefits at the same time. There are arguments that at the moment that’s might not be the best idea. That’s the argument from the Liberals. They say, you know, they look forward to the day where they can start scaling these things down, but we’re just not there yet. People are still concerned. There are still, you know, outbreaks happening at different plants. We’ve seen meat processing plants have to close down. People who’ve worked at those plants died after contracting COVID-19. And so, you know, there’s this balance that I think politicians are trying to seek at this point of, you know, protecting workers, making sure they’re not sending them into unsafe environments, but also trying to restart the economy, which a lot of provinces have already started to roll out. So it’ll be interesting to see when the government feels it’s time to start scaling back these emergency benefits, or maybe even extend them. They’re not ruling that out either, extending the CERB or some help for businesses through this. And we’re also seeing now a phase where the government is moving away from the, you know, the more broad emergency supports, to more targeted supports when it comes to industry. So, and even Canadians. The government says that it’s still working on measures to try and help seniors. We could be getting more sectoral help. We had an initial investment of $552 million for the agriculture and AgriFood sectors. So farmers who are in need of help right now, they’re getting some cash. It’s not as much as they had hoped, but the government says, more is on the way. You can expect more announcements in the future, in the coming days and weeks, about the tourism sector, the airline industry, possibly the energy industry as well, fisheries, you know, a lot of different industries that have been hit really hard, not just by what’s going on within our borders, but also the export market as well. Because a lot of these industries, some of them in the food industry as well, are relying heavily on exports to other nations. And when that demand drops off, like we’ve seen through this pandemic, that creates huge, huge problems for them.
Jordan: So you mentioned that we’ve seen provinces kind of start to push to reopen. And in a few places, some businesses have been given the green light, although with lots of strict health measures. What role is Ottawa playing in that, if any? Is this totally left up to the province? Is there an overarching guiding principle from the federal government? And at what point do they, or do they not get involved?
Cormac: So a few weeks ago, there were a lot of questions about whether the federal government would enact the Emergencies Act, which would allow the federal government is sort of, you know, take this overarching approach where they could then dictate and take control over things like resources within our country, such as, let’s say, food rationing, that kind of thing. As well, they could limit people’s movements between provinces. So there was this sort of option that the federal government had where it could take more control over the provinces and what happens within Canada than they currently have within our Federation. The Prime Minister had said that that was a last resort. He didn’t want to hit that point, but he was prepared to do so if necessary. It never came to that point, at least not yet. And so it largely is in the hands of the provinces when it comes to reopening the economy. However, the federal government was in conversations with a lot of premiers, with all of the premiers, to make sure that they were all reopening in at least some sort of similar fashion. Now you’re seeing some provinces like Saskatchewan, or Alberta move at a faster pace than you’re seeing maybe in Ontario. And the federal government has said, each province is dealing with this in a different way because they are all unique and in terms of their situations, their health situations, through this crisis. And so they have this overarching set of guidelines that the premiers and the federal government have agreed to, in terms of reopening, but they are kind of, you know, vague in one way, because it’s just sort of things like being able to make sure that the provinces are able to handle any spike of COVID-19 within their provinces, in terms of the health care system. Making sure that they have the proper capacity to test people for the virus. Making sure that there are rules in place when workplaces start to reopen, so that those protocols will prevent further spread of COVID-19. How provinces decide to enact those sort of federal guidelines is open to interpretation of the provinces. So we’re seeing right now, you know, some people think it’s fine to open up golf courses and make sure that people can start picking up goods from their favourite stores as long as, you know, you can do it pick up outside the front door. And other provinces are still kind of shuttered up and not allowing that same kind of access because they’re concerned about what might happen in the days ahead if they roll this out too soon. So definitely a cautious approach from a lot of the provinces, but polls have shown that Canadians do feel like provincial and federal governments are moving at the proper pace. Although I think Alberta was the outlier in that poll where about half of Albertans said they want their government to slow down just a little bit because they feel the reopening of the economy is happening a little bit too quickly.
Jordan: And finally, aside from the aid programs, which we’ve kind of talked about, and reopening, what is the government planning on accomplishing or even preparing for, I guess, as we kind of head into the summer and particularly the fall when I know a lot of people, especially scientists, are concerned that we could see a second wave of this?
Cormac: Yeah. You know, pray for the best and prepare for the worst is kind of what we’re doing here. I mean, you know, the provinces wanted to reopen their economies and start this rollout. The federal government asked to do this in a cautious, slow way. We are seeing positive signs, but there’s still a lot of work to do here from federal and provincial governments. One issue moving forward is going to be longterm care facilities. We’ve seen at least two provinces get the military to come in to help them with issues and outbreaks that we’ve been seeing. And most of the deaths in Canada have been around long term care facilities. So dealing with seniors and trying to make sure that our vulnerable populations are protected is going to be an ongoing priority for both levels of government, to make sure that we don’t see a sudden spike. But I think one important thing is that as the weather warms up, you’re hearing confusing or conflicting information, and it’s understandable for Canadians to feel a little bit confused by all of this because, you know, the Prime Minister will say, stay in home as much as possible, and then maybe a provincial health official will say, it’s okay to get outside and walk around for a little while. You have some cities who are opening up what would otherwise be streets for a car traffic so that people can walk up and down and physically distance and get some exercise. And as the summer comes in, you know, more people are going to be wanting to get outside. So it’s going to be a challenge for all governments as we enter the summer months to make sure that we don’t see another spike, another wave of COVID-19 cases, and it’s going to be months. I don’t see the lifting of restrictions and the slow rollout of reopening the economies, meaning that our lives will be back to normal, anytime soon. We’re probably in for a long time of restrictive measures around physical distancing, even when you’re getting back to work, there are certain protocols I think people will have to follow. The Prime Minister has said, life won’t return to full normal until we have a vaccine. That could be the fall. That could be a year from now. We don’t know exactly when a vaccine will be developed. You know, as historians have pointed out as well, you look back to the Spanish flu and I think the Prime Minister has pointed this out also. The spring was bad, but the fall was much worse. And so, you know, you learn from mistakes in the past to try and make sure that you don’t allow something like that to happen again. But I think there will be a lot of frustration. You’re already seeing people who have gone out and tried to protest these restrictive measures, claiming it’s a restriction on their rights and they have a right to defy the orders as much as possible. And that could increase. We could see more frustration from Canadians as this stretches on. But it’s going to be interesting to see how this plays out.
Jordan: Always good to end on an optimistic note. Thanks Cormac.
Cormac: But the sun will shine, and that’s the optimistic note.
Jordan: There you go. Have a great one.
Cormac: All right. You too.
Jordan: Cormac MacSweeney is our friend up on Parliament Hill, or at least watching the proceedings. That was The Big Story. For more from us, of course, you can head to thebigstorypodcast.ca. You can also find us on our brother and sister podcasts at frequencypodcastnetwork.com. You can talk to us anytime on Twitter at @thebigstoryFPN and of course, if you want to just tell us how you’re doing, what you’re doing, what you think of the show, you can email us, you can use a voice memo, or you can use a video and you can send it to thebigstorypodcast@rci.rogers.com and in fact, we love to play some of these clips, and here’s one now a personal favourite because I love it when high school kids care about the news. It’s huge. Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings. We’ll talk to tomorrow.
Elena: Hi, my name is Elena. I’m from Toronto and I’ve been listening to this podcast for about a month now. So currently I’m in high school and committing to online school has been a struggle for both my friends and I. It was not like we did not want to do it at all because it was a whole new thing and like we were getting used to it, but now it’s just part of our daily routine. So, I really want the life back that I had in like, 2019 and before quarantine was even a thing, but that didn’t happen. So it’s kind of living every day, you know, as it is for now. I remember about a month before March break my family and I had planned a trip to New York. And I was so excited because I had never been, and it was like the one place I had dreamed about going to. Literally a week before the break, my parents told my brother and I that they had canceled it because of the many risks. I can’t even lie, I was upset at first, but I completely understood why. So I’m Italian, I have relatives in Italy who are healthcare workers and who just lived there. And it honestly is scary. I am so grateful for all the healthcare and essential workers out there. My respect goes out to them. I can honestly say though, during this whole quarantine, I have picked up a few new hobbies. I have developed a huge love for cooking and baking. It’s all I’ve been doing. Netflix, Disney Plus, a hundred percent. I finally realized how much I took advantage of, you know, simple things such as going to the mall. Being able to hang out in large groups and et cetera. Anyways, so I love listening to this podcast, I play it every morning like already, you know, kind of distracts me, which is good. So yeah, stay safe everyone.
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