Jordan
This weekend, while all hell was breaking loose in Ottawa, a different picture of Canadian unity could be found not that far away in Hamilton, Ontario,
Canadian men’s soccer team clip
*sound of fans celebrating in-stadium*
The Canadian men’s soccer team shut out the Americans to remain undefeated in World Cup qualifying, and all that punch their ticket to the World Cup this summer in Qatar, if you don’t usually follow the Canadian men’s soccer team, just know that the sentence I just read is something of a fever dream. For those who do. Four decades since their first and only winless trip to the World Cup in 1986. Canada’s men’s team was a joke. And if that label is too cruel, then let’s just say they were irrelevant to the soccer world to soccer fans to almost every Canadian. But a few years ago, things slowly started to change. Then last year, they started to change rapidly.
Alphonso Davies Clip
*Sounds crowd and commentator celbrating goal*
Jordan
So here we are Canada can qualify for the World Cup tonight versus El Salvador, it seems all but certain they will qualify next month regardless. So now the question becomes, how much further can this team go, and how many Canadian kids will become the next generation of soccer players because of them? I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings. This is the big story. John Molinero is one of the leading soccer journalists in Canada. He’s covered the game for more than two decades, including at sports net at CBC Sports and with Sun media. He is currently the editor in chief of TFC Republic, a website dedicated to in-depth coverage of Toronto FC and of course, for the purposes of this conversation, the Canadian soccer program.
Hey, John.
John Molinaro
Hey, Jordan, how are you?
Jordan
I’m doing really well.It’s nice to talk to you.
John Molinaro
Good to talk to you.
Jordan
John, how long have you been watching? I know you’ve been covering them for two decades now. How long have you been watching the Canadian men’s soccer team?
John Molinaro
Pretty much since the 1980s. Probably my first exposure would have been the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles, I can remember Canada competing in that tournament. And you know, giving a really hard time to Brazil, believe it or not. And you know, that just sort of led to my sort of fascination with the team and obviously follow them quite closely at the World Cup two years later in Mexico, when they competed at the World Cup for the first time. And then pretty much since then, and just been steadily following them ever since.
Jordan
So that was the last time and the only time they were in the World Cup in 1986. During the period from 1986 to I don’t know, the last year or so, how has this team been perceived? And if not by you, and the folks who really follow them closely than by like Canadian sports fans and media in general? Because I know, you know, our women’s team has been so amazing over the past decade or two and not so much on the men’s side.
John Molinaro
Yeah.I think it’s a real coming of age for the men’s team, because I think for the longest time because they punched so below their weight for the lot for forever, that there was sense that ah it’s the Canadian men’s team. I mean, they’re never going to do anything. And when you counterbalance that with, you know how the Canadian Women’s team has been doing, you know, over the last decade or so having a great deal of success. They were very much in the shadow of the women’s side. And so I would suggest in the last, you know, four years really since you know, Coach John Herdman took over. It’s been a complete turnabout.
News Clip
it’s been 24 hours since a shocking announcement from the Canadian Soccer Association, John Herdman, the manager of the senior Men’s National Team After managing James, the senior Women’s National Team. Are you still shocked? Oh, yeah. Yeah, this is an absolute bombshell that’s just rocked the foundations of Canadian soccer, let’s be honest here.
John Molinaro
And it’s been helped by breakout players such as Alphonso Davies and Jonathan David, who, you know, we’re playing at top clubs in Europe, and you know, competing regularly in the UEFA Champions League, but it’s also sort of the advancement of you know, top MLS players like Jonathan Osorio of TFC and Mark Anthony Kaye of the Colorado Rapids, Samuel Piette FCF. Montreal, Lucas Cavalini of Vancouver Whitecaps, I think you’re seeing more and more players, domestic and abroad, who are Canadian who are really sort of, you know, coming into their own. And that’s just led to this, you know, almost this golden age of Canadian soccer where, you know, all these forces have combined together and the team is competing brilliantly. And I think, you know, certainly the, the team’s current run through the World Cup qualifiers, as, as you know, been a shot in the arm for the program, I don’t think you know, to be in first place, after 10 games. Without a loss, you know, to have beaten both the United States and Mexico, I don’t think anyone even the most optimistic Canadian fan would have figured that Canada would be, you know, in this position this late in the game. So it’s been an incredible metamorphosis of, for the national team on the men’s side where, you know, where they were very much kind of an afterthought, where to now they are very much, you know, on everyone’s mind, and, you know, everybody seemingly wants a piece of them.
Jordan
We’re going to talk about the team specifically in a moment, because I’m going to get you to introduce some of these players and their makeup to, to us casual fans, because there’s a lot of people I think, like me who have found themselves on the bandwagon over the past six months, but first, maybe looking back at that period, when they were kind of wandering the wilderness. What was holding them back? Did they ever threaten to breakthrough? Like, I’m trying to get a sense of where they just a bad team? Did they consistently underperform their talent? Like, what was the problem with this club the past 15-20 years?
John Molinaro
I think it’s a combination of all those things. I mean, I think we have to be pretty blunt here. And again, say no, call it like it is and say that, you know, for the longest time, they simply weren’t good enough. You know, it’s only really in the last four or five years that we’ve seen top, you know, Canadian players at the very heights of MLS, and really playing at the top teams in Europe. You know, previously, you had the odd player, you know, with a top European club, but they were very few and far between. And usually Canada had to, you know, fill its roster with very mediocre players, guys who weren’t necessarily playing for their pro-sides. And oftentimes, they would call in players who were out of court who didn’t have pro teams who were, you know, were often, you know, unattached and in between sides, and not for like, weeks, but like months on end. And so that wasn’t unusual. So I think, you know, we’ve got to be pretty honest with ourselves and say that, you know, Canada wasn’t very good for a very long time, that it takes time for players to really develop and to for a team like this to come together. And, you know, finally has obviously for Canada.
Jordan
Was there a moment during the past? You mentioned four or five years as the program started to turn around? Was there a moment that you can put your finger on when you kind of felt like something has shifted here? There’s real momentum something is tangibly getting better? Like what was your first hint that better days were really coming?
John Molinaro
Well, I look back to you know, Na, a game in the summer of 2017, in Montreal, when Canada played Curacao.
Canada Vs Curacao Montreal 2017 clip
*Sound of crowd cheering in stadium*
John Molinaro
And this was when Tabios Zambrano was still the coach of Canada. So he was the predecessor of John Herman, who was hired in January of 2018. But when you look at that game, against Curacao in Montreal,
Canada Vs Curacao Montreal 2017 clip
It was a winner from Jackson-Hamel, and two one is the final score,
John Molinaro
You know, that game mark the debut of Alfonso Davies, you had players like Mark Anthony Kaye, and other youngsters in the side as well in the program at the time. And I think that, you know, that sort of gave me a sense that, you know, things could sort of be on the up here. You know, Davies was only 17 At the time, and you could clearly see, you know, what a talent he was, and this was, this was when he was still in MLS, he hadn’t made the move to Bayern Munich, but you could just tell the talent that he had and that he was destined for greatness and destined for, for football beyond MLS. Canada won that game wasn’t particularly convincing, but you just saw, you know, Buds, you saw sort of, you know, this could really blossom into something special, not just with Alphonso Davies, but just with, you know, many of the young players that they had in camp at the time, and I think it’s come to pass. I mean, for me, that was really sort of the first instance where I thought it gave me hope that, you know, the program could start to turn around and I think, you know, John Herdman coming in, you know, six months later in January, that was another major turning point because he’s, I think, completely changed. You know, this national the Canadian men’s team on so many levels in terms of, you know, philosophy in terms of player recruitment, in terms of preparation. He’s really sort of gotten the best out of this team and shame and radically changed the culture from, you know, an underachieving side to one that goes into every game confident that it can win.
Jordan
Tell me how that culture change happens because this is something you know, you and I used to work together at sports net, this is something sports talking heads love to get into. But it really seems like something radically changed in terms of how Canadian soccer approaches matches. And in any sport, the idea of going from perennially expected to lose or under achieve to going into matchups with the big guys expecting to win is a massive shift. How did Herdman do that?
John Molinaro
Well, a couple of different things. I think he, you know, when you talk to the, to the current Canadian national team players who have been around and when played under different coaches, they will tell you that, you know, in terms of preparation for matches, and for, you know, long stretches of games that, you know, John Herdman has no equal. I mean, he is really sort of meticulous that to, to the point of ridiculousness. I mean, he’ll, he’ll want to research you know, the route, the bus route that the team will take from, you know, the hotel to the stadium to, you know, travel arrangements to the hotel to what they’re eating, I mean, he leaves no stone unturned, because he wants to sort of make sure that, you know, Canada is best prepared in every facet, he doesn’t want any sort of you no hiccups along the way. So there’s a sense that he’s sort of taking going that extra step, and taking extra care of his players more so than any of his predecessors. And I think as, as a result, his players have, you know, responded and kind of give him a little bit more. I think the other thing is that, you know, he’s really sort of beating the bushes in terms of, you know, giving players chances who maybe are flying under the radar, bringing guys into the program who have the option to play for other nations. Ayo Akinola is a great example. I mean, he’s, you know, Detroit-born player who kind of grew up in Canada, he had the option to play for the US. But he chose to play internationally for Canada. And there’s, you know, several different stories like that of guys coming into play for Canada. And it’s because of Herdmen. The way that he just sort of goes after these guys and recruits them, it gets into the head of the other players that look, hey, you know, before we were losing players to other countries, and now guys are, you know, wanting to play for Canada, they’re actively choosing to play for Canada, and turning down offers from other nations, it’s really sort of led to this sense of self belief that yeah, they can compete against the base, best nations . And I think we’ve seen that so far in this qualifying round where they’ve taken four out of six points against us, and they’ve taken four out of six points against Mexico, which, you know, would have been unheard of five years ago.
Jordan
Tell me a little bit about the makeup of this team. I think, last weekend, well, there was all sorts of nastiness going on in Ottawa, one of the things that a lot of people noticed was the joy that these Canadian players took facing the US and to see all of them belting out the national anthem, and what’s the makeup like and, and who are they? I know, the goalie Milan Borjan talked about being the child of immigrants and giving back to Canada and like, it just seems like there’s quite a multicultural vibe with them.
John Molinaro
Oh, absolutely. It’s a very diverse, multi ethnic group when you have someone like Milan Borjan, as you said, born in the former former Yugoslavia. His family fled to Belgrade during the Croatian war for independence, you know, came to Canada when he was 13 years old. First going to Winnipeg and then settling in Hamilton. If you ever see him at a game and he is just so passionate about representing Canada and he talked about it after the win against the US on the weekend about this is his way of giving back because the country give his family you know, a chance of living a peaceful, undisturbed life, more opportunities that he would have had in you know where he grew up. And you know, he wears his heart on a sleeve and when he made a fantastic save on Western McKenney, the US midfielder right before halftime
Comentator Clip
What a save by Milan Borjan , what a save by the goalkeeper.
brilliant save.
John Molinaro
And the first thing he did was, you know, beat his beat the his chest with the you know, the Canadian flag on his jersey. And when he was speaking to media the other day after the game, it was with, you know, a Canadian flag draped over his shoulders.
Milan Borjan Clip
Just unbelievable. This is this uhh, this team is something special. I mean, more we’re one step closer, you know, to making the the history of Canada and just like.
John Molinaro
You know, and that’s not unique. I mean, you have someone like Alphonso Davies, who, you know, we came here as a refugee with his family and settled in Edmonton and became one of the International soccer’s biggest stars and it’s such a, you know, wonderful collection of players from diverse backgrounds and different ethnicities. but really competing as one nation is one team. And it’s interesting because they one of the buzz words in the Canadian camp, both from the coach John Herman the players is they talk about it being a brotherhood. You know, pretty much in every interview, they talk about this, you know, they’ve mentioned this idea of that. They see themselves as brothers. And you know, there’s really, although they come from different backgrounds and different walks of life, that they are one in the same, and they are competing for one nation and one team. And I think that’s that sort of attitude has really served them. Well.
Jordan
You’ve mentioned Alfonso Davies a couple of times. And again, for casual fans, I’m going to ask you to tell me just how good he is and how he stacks up to the rest of the world because again, watching the game, you see people referring them to him as one of the greatest strikers on the planet. And that is not something I’m used to hearing, but a Canadian men’s soccer player, you know, we’ve been spoiled for a couple of decades with Christine Sinclair on the women’s side. I personally would have never expected to see a Canadian stack up against the the greatest, you know, we’re talking about Ronaldo and Messi and stuff here.
John Molinaro
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn’t put him in the same color in the category of Messi and Ronaldo. I don’t think anyone would justifiably do that. But when you’re talking about Alfonso Davies, at 21 years old, you’re talking about one of the top international young stars in the game, you know, he’s probably top five in the world. And when you talk about his position as a left fullback, who you know who can also play further up front as an attacker, but he’s widely regarded as one of the best left fullbacks if not the best left fullback in the entire world soccer nets covering a lot of ground because you’re talking about, you know, the top teams in Europe, you’re talking about top teams and in South America as well. And so you’re quite right. It’s pretty startling to think about that, you know, on the men’s side, because we’ve never had a player of his sort of stature before. I mean, we’ve never Canada has never had a player where they’ve been in the conversation, as you know, among the best players in the world at the time, and certainly not among, you know, the best of his respective position. Really, it really is an incredible story.
Jordan
As somebody who’s used to disappointment from this Canadian men’s national team when I heard Alphonso Davies would miss this series of games with myocarditis. I think I probably wasn’t alone and in feeling a little bit of that familiar cynicism, come back, but but that didn’t take place. What happened instead?
John Molinaro
Well, I appreciate that a lot of people were anxious when they heard that, you know, Alfonso Davies was going to miss these three games and you know, the nerve was like, Well, how are they going to cope without him?
News Clip 2
There’s another sports story we are watching. This is Canadian soccer superstar Alfonso Davies, he’s now sidelined with a heart muscle inflammation stemming from a COVID-19 infection. His German club Bayern Munich says it’s a mild infection. But Davies will be out for at least several weeks while he recovers. That conditioning.
John Molinaro
I have to be honest, I wasn’t terribly worried about it at all, because this team is more than one man team. It’s more than Alphonso Davies, Canada, you know, has they’ve never had this kind of overall quality and overall depth, really, at every position, losing Davies look, you never want to lose your best player. But it was hardly the deathblow that everyone seemed to think it was and you know, because they have players who can make up for him, you know, in his absence. And, you know, when you look at recent history, you know, they’ve done well without them when they’ve had to play without them. You know, last year they made it to the semi-finals of the Gold Cup, you know, losing a heartbreaker to Mexico and they did that both with Alphonso Davies and Jonathan David, one of their top forwards who were both injured, they missed the entire tournament’s, and they still went on to the semi finals. Last September, Davies picked up an injury, knee injury in the second half of a World Cup qualifier against the United States in Nashville and Canada went on to win or sorry Canada went on to draw that game one one. He was ruled out for the home game in Toronto three days later against El Salvador with a knee injury and Canada comfortably ran out, you know, three nothing winner. So they have proven that they can win without him. Obviously, they want to have him on the lineup because just such a dangerous player and he’s such a dynamic attacker who can really, you know, unbalanced opposing players, but they have such depth and quality in every position. Now, they can withstand the absence so you know, a key star like Alphonso Davies.
Jordan
So tonight, the third and final game of this qualifying window, Canada is against El Salvador. You mentioned at the very beginning of this conversation that they are on the cusp of qualifying for the World Cup in Qatar. Can they do that tonight? Just how close are they? How big is this game?
John Molinaro
Yeah, it’s a pretty big game. They can sort of qualify tonight. But it’s you know, they would have to win and plus they would need results in the three other games to go their way, including Honduras last place, Honduras winning in Minneapolis against the United States. And I really, I really can’t see that happening because the US, the US is going to you know, Honduras is so playing so poorly right now and I don’t think the US is going to open the door. for them, but they are well placed to qualify for the World Cup, it’ll happen. And if not this round, then in the final slate of games in March, you know, they’re sitting top and the group, you know, frankly, would take a collapse of major proportions for them not to qualify for the World Cup, it’s, it’s, it’s far more difficult than for them right now not to qualify than it would be to qualify.
Jordan
Assuming this holds up, and they make it to Qatar. I mean, that’s a victory in itself, obviously, first World Cup in almost 30 years. But is it fair to expect more from them than just getting there? Can they put a scare into any of the traditionally top teams in the world?
John Molinaro
Well, it’s difficult to say for a number of reasons. I mean, I’ll answer two ways. Yes, on the one hand, it, I think it’s reasonable to expect that they can sort of cause a bit of a stir, I mean, I wouldn’t suggest that they’re going to go to the finals, or the or the semi-finals, or even the quarterfinals. But, you know, giving sort of top teams a bit of a scare and coming out of the group might not be an unreasonable expectation, just the way that they’re playing right now. It’s such a brilliant, you know, attacking team with, you know, a pretty solid defense and it with Milan Borean, I think he’s one of the best international goalkeepers going right now. So I think there would be right to have expectations for them to go to Qatar and not just show up into sort of, you know, do something go on a bit of a run. On the other hand, you know, they’re going to be paying the top teams in Europe, top teams in South America, you know, the field for the for the World Cup hasn’t even been completely filled out. Right. And right now, there are still teams going through the qualifiers, so we don’t even know all who all is going to be there. And plus the luck of the draw, you know, can goes a long way in determining, right, a World Cup teams fate. So it’s, it’s far too early, I would suggest to sort of get into this sort of discussions about you know, whether they can do anything or not, I mean, if you’re, if you’re bound, if you’re sort of just going on, you know, how they’re doing this far, then sure, I think is reasonable to have expectations. But at the same time, just because of how, you know, the field is looking right now, it’s not even complete, I think we’d be getting ahead of ourselves, you know, making any sort of bold predictions.
Jordan
Last question and World Cup results aside? What does this run mean, for the game in Canada, for kids playing soccer in Canada? I mean, shoot, even for folks like you who have been so passionately covering this team for 20 years, like, how big is this for the sport in general, here,
John Molinaro
It’s massive on a lot of fronts. I mean, you know, for in terms of the the actual state of the game, I don’t think you can overstate how big of a recruitment driving force this is, when you look at the women’s side, you know, they’ve had a great deal of success at the Olympics. Obviously, it’s what it what it’s done for women participation in this in this country has been immense. I mean, young girls are choosing to play soccer, because of, you know, they can watch players like Christine Sinclair, and it’s, you talk to certain current young members of the Canadian national team. And they will tell you that they were inspired, watching Christine Sinclair, you know, winning a bronze medal at London or Rio, and now they are teammates with Christine Sinclair. So you can’t sort of overestimate how big the influences of, you know, winning program and how what it means for, you know, inspiring a new generation of young girls, and I think we’re gonna see, you know, similarly, a do the same thing. On the men’s side.
I mean, a lot of, you know, when they come into their teenage years, they have to sort of make a decision, whether they’re going to go with hockey, or where they’re going to go with soccer. And usually, hockey wins out, I suspect that, you know, if, if Canada get to the World Cup, and, you know, Canadian sort of teenagers and boys can see a Canadian team, playing at the World Cup, you know, the biggest sporting event on the planet, it’s going to be massive, you know, it’ll really drive up participation numbers, and it will really inspire, you know, the next generation of children, you know, to pick up the sport, in terms of, you know, media coverage and whatnot, and, you know, long suffering reporters like myself, who have covered the team, it’s also big, I mean, this is a team that has struggled to gain a foothold into the sporting sort of consciousness of the country for a long time. And now, you know, with them being on the cusp of qualifying, they’re getting a lot of sort of love from media and, and recognition and coverage, and rightly so, it’s, you know, it’s an amazing story. So, I can’t even imagine, you know, what the coverage is going to be like, should they qualify when they qualify for Qatar, I think it’s just going to go through the roof. And you have to remember too, that Canada is set to co host the World Cup in four years time in 2026. Right. And so this is, you know, this is going to be a massive boost for the sport.
Jordan
John, thank you so much for this. Really enlightening for me as a casual fan and enjoy the game tonight and enjoy the rest of this run wherever it takes the team
John Molinaro
Cheers Jordan,Good talking to you.
Jordan
John Molinero is the co-founder and editor-in-chief of TFC Republic, which you can find at TFC republic.ca. You’ll find to See stuff there but also extensive coverage of this Canadian men’s teams. Unbelievable run. That was the big story. You can find more from us, of course at thebigstorypodcast.ca You can find us on Twitter @TheBigStoryFPNand you can find us via email[click here!]We are in every single podcast player, including now back on Spotify after a little technical difficulty yesterday. So you can find us there in whatever player you prefer. Or you can just ask your smart speaker to play the big story podcast. Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings. We’ll talk tomorrow.
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