Lisa LaFlamme on the Queen’s funeral and what comes next

Clip You’re listening to a frequency podcast network production in association with City News.

Jordan Heath-Rawlings One of the strangest things about the passing of the Queen is how long literally everyone, including the woman herself, spent preparing for it, and how, even after that, the reality can still leave you awe struck. I am not speaking of awe for the person or the monarchy, though certainly millions of people have those feelings and are welcome to them. I am talking about the sheer spectacle of one event’s ability to halt most of the Western world.

Clip This is BBC News from London. Buckingham palace has announced the death of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. In a statement, the palace said the Queen died peacefully at Balmoral this afternoon. About 2 hours, I think. Quite long. Yeah, but worth it. Why are you so keen to go see the coffin? Just to see the Queen, pay our respects, I think.

Jordan As I record this, hundreds of thousands of people are waiting hours upon hours to pay their final respects. They are lining up for literal miles down London streets. They will do this all weekend. And on Monday comes the funeral, which will be a show of pomp and circumstance that perhaps will never be seen again. That’s because nobody knows what comes next after this. Can King Charles ever possibly be as loved as Elizabeth? Will any monarch ever matter as much again? And will commonwealth countries, including ours, take this opportunity to revisit whether or not they want or need a monarchy? The Queen is at rest, but history is moving forward.

I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings. This is the big story. Lisa Laflamme is a veteran and venerated Canadian broadcast journalist. She has covered most of the major moments in the monarchy over the past few decades. She joins us now from London, where she is covering the passing of the Queen for City News. Hello, Lisa.

Jordan Hello. It’s so great to be on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. I understand things are pretty hectic over there as we speak to you on Wednesday night.

Lisa Laflamme It is insane, I’ll be honest. We were here since last Friday and we’ve watched the crowds and the queues, more importantly, building day after day. But I think today, really, it almost feels like the city is about to burst their tube system here. Many of the lines were closed down because there were just too many people, there’s just too much volume in central London. And everybody, you can understand it, they want to have an opportunity to get close to history, to pay personal respects to a woman. They so revere the logistics of that. However, on these old cobbled streets surrounding Buckingham Palace is an enormous challenge on a million levels.

Jordan Maybe you could describe the queue, I understand, as we’re speaking, and it will open on Thursday, and people will be visiting the Queen to pay their respects for hours upon hours after that. What’s the queue like right now?

Lisa Laflamme Right now. They started letting the general public in and it’s about a seven kilometer line up and the average wait time is 30 hours right now. And to put that in perspective, just imagine some of the people in that line are well north of 80, if you can believe it. They are still waiting in the line. They’ll be overnighting. Last night it was pouring rain. They were out there in sleeping bags to try to be at the front of the line. I will say this, though, it’s extraordinary, the pace of the line. It’s moving at a very brisk pace, which is good. We saw in St. Giles’ cathedral in Edinburgh, it moved 40 people an hour. So they definitely had a bit of a template there to run with. For this experience. The Queen will be lying in state until Monday morning, just before a few hours before her funeral. They will have a special vigil to close down the lying in state before, obviously, the final funeral at Westminster Abbey.

Jordan How is the queue being organized? I mean, people north of 80 in a lineup for 30 hours sounds not great and potentially dangerous. What’s the level of security of aid for people who need it?

Lisa Laflamme Huge. It’s been fascinating to see. They have you know, when you go to an all inclusive jordan, come on. I’m sure we are an all inclusive man. They give you an arm band and you can’t go anywhere without it. In this case, the arm band different color system. It allows people, depending on where they are in the line, to leave the line and return with that armband to a place in the line. So you don’t necessarily lose your spot if, say, you’re way, way back and you have any health concerns. Different color arm band. I mean, it’s a very well oiled machine they have here. You can imagine. They’ve been planning this for so long. And I was here in 2002 for the Queen mom’s death, and that was the first time I think I’d ever seen that kind of lying in state. And the lineups around Westminster Hall at that time were just extraordinary. In fact, there was a big debate then, and there’s a big debate now on whether or not they should try to extend it, which they can’t, because the funeral is Monday. So it is what it is. There’s going to be a cut off point where they’re going to say to people, look, there’s just not enough hours left. But more than anything, it is extraordinary to see people from across this country and around the world who are drawn here like a magnet to pay tribute to this woman and respect for her lifetime of service to the public. Well, I want to ask you about the general mood there, especially because this podcast will air on Friday morning.

Jordan So the situation in the queue may or may not have changed, but you’ve been here almost a week. Now, is this truly somber or is it a celebration? I know people are mourning the Queen, but she also lived a pretty long, amazing life. What’s the mood like in the people that you’re talking to?

Lisa Laflammen That’s such a great question, because, of course, if you take the overarching view, you say, this was a 96 year old woman. She did live an extraordinary life, but she was 96. And yet, if we all have a beloved grandmother, it doesn’t matter her age, we suffer the loss. We loved that grandmother, and I can’t even count how many people have said it’s like, My granny died. And that is why I think this is such an emotional experience. There is, of course, joy and celebration of her life, but there are tears. Everywhere we go, there are tears. Sometimes my own, I have to be honest, because it is a very emotional experience. Something about seeing hundreds of years of tradition play out before you. The procession from Buckingham Palace to Westminster Hall was just an extraordinary thing to be witnessed to. And what struck me the most is that people would be chatting in the line and we were waiting. I mean, it was 15 people deep and I’m five foot four, so I didn’t have a chance in the world of really seeing anything with my own eyeballs. But I did hold my phone up high to try to do what I could. The thing that struck me, you’re surrounded by thousands and thousands of people, and before the procession even started from Buckingham Palace, there was a complete hush. It was dead silent. You could have heard a pin drop. Nobody spoke, nobody chatted, nobody coughed. It was the most incredible thing, to be honest. And then the procession began, and I’m certain it will be like this on Monday for the funeral, the procession began and there was, again just reverence and silence and deep respect. Then, when it was all over, it was really kind of fascinating. The crowd just sort of erupted into this spontaneous applause. And I have seen that throughout, like we saw it the other day as well, when she came back to Buckingham Palace after returning from Scotland. I think people just need a way to emote. Some people cry, some people clap, some people remain silent. We’ve seen a little bit of it all. And I always have been thinking, this week, especially the last two days, the Queen very famously said once, she had to be seen to be believed, and trust me, this is something to see. I wonder, would it have even surprised her, this unbelievable outpouring of love and support from the people of the UK and around the world, the commonwealth?

Jordan I do want to ask you about those moments of silence where you can hear a pin drop, because obviously there has been a lot of quiet. We’ve seen a number of clips, I think, of protesters and anti monarchists shouting things during those moments of silence and some of them have been arrested. Have you seen or heard any of that? And how much pushback is there, really, amongst the throngs there to mourn her?

Lisa Laflamme Well, trust me, where I am, zero. I mean, I am literally right beside Green Park, which is where the massive, unbelievably growing memorial is, and Buckingham Palace is adjacent to Green Park. The crowds that we are in are all making their way to either lay down a bouquet of flowers or get in a queue to see something. So I know what you’re referring to. Certainly that was in I think it was in Edinburgh when the family members were moving behind the casket, the procession out of St Giles and down the Royal Mile. It was absolutely in Edinburgh and there was a heckler there who made comments insulting Prince Andrew and the crowd actually tackled him before the police did. He was really charged with disrupting the peace on the Royal Mile, which apparently is a law dating back to 1096 or something like that. Right. But I’m not sure I can’t give you any facts on where that sits today. There are certainly two schools of thought. You are allowed to protest 100%, you are. But it was interesting to me that it was the crowd who saw that as so disrespectful for the Queen. No matter what you think of Prince Andrew, this is not about him, this is about the Queen. There have been other little protests that I’ve only seen here on TV. I have not seen one single one in person. And believe me, we’ve been out all over the streets of central London every single day, all day long. So I’m sure they’re here, I see them on the news, but I have not seen them personally with my own eyes.

Jordan You mentioned that Queens Coffin was in Edinburgh with the family. Can you just describe the journey that she’s taken, I guess her last journey around the country over the past several days. Where is it gone and why?

Lisa Laflamme Well, I’ll tell you what is really almost fate in a way, that she died at Balmoral Castle because it’s beautiful Scottish countryside that really was her family home, if you will, one of her favorite places. And she was able there to be more of a mom and a grandmom and leave all the duties of the palace and the monarchy at home, so to speak, leave her crown at the door. So Balmoral was a place she loved and they had a contingency plan. You must realize that the blueprint for her death has been written some 60 years ago and obviously updated, and the Queen herself has had a huge role in it. Operation London Bridge is the code for her death, but they had a separate one if she died at Balmoral, which was Operation Unicorn, and I just love that it was Unicorn, because I think for her, that was her Xanadu, if you will. So she left Balmoral. I’m going to get my days mixed up, but I think on Sunday she moved to St Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh, an extraordinary six hour journey from Balmoral through the spectacular countryside, the towns and villages of Scotland. One beautiful tribute was in Aberdeenshire, where there was just tractor after tractor. It was a beautiful because this woman once fancied herself as just wanting to be a farmer’s wife. Of course, she ends up being the monarch for 70 years job. She was extraordinary at, but she really was connected to nature and flowers and all of that. So it was kind of poetic that she was traveling through Scotland from Scotland. She then was last night, her casket was put on an airplane and Air Force One with, of course, the call named Kitty Hawk, which is what they call it when the Queen is on board, flew into Norfolk Airport here outside of London. And that procession was really powerful last night. She did lie in Rest, it was called in Scotland for 36 hours. I should tell you that when she arrived in London, it was a magical moment again, she was coming home. This is the city of her birth. She was born five minutes from where I am standing right now. And it was like the West End. London came to a standstill. Cars pulled over, got out of their cars. It was a pouring rain night. All you could see were the sort of twinkling lights of the cars and then pulling up the Mall, which is the road that leads up to Buckingham Palace. It was almost like a red carpet in the color of the cobblestone and the rain. It was very beautiful and there were so many moments, just quiet tributes. We saw quiet tributes today at the Westminster Hall when she was brought into the century old hall. It’s the oldest, most ancient part of parliament here in London. And, you know, we saw very sort of discreet courtsy from Kate, who is now, of course, the Princess of Wales, and we saw all four of them, kate, Megan, Harry and William, all standing side by side. So this is the second time since the Queen died that we have seen some kind of reunion, if you will. Whether it’s lasting, who knows? But it’s I think it’s important for all of us to know that the brothers don’t lose the connection with each other because we all watched them grow up. Well, I certainly did.

Jordan I mentioned off the top that you’ve covered so many moments for the Queen and the monarchy over your career. You mentioned that you covered the Queen mom’s death. You must have imagined at times what would happen when Elizabeth passed and what the coverage would be like. How is this different if it is from what you’d pictured?

Lisa Laflamme Well, you’re absolutely right, Jordan. I mean, we networks, they prepare for this forever. Every journalist is in training for the big one. This is absolutely the big one that everybody was preparing for, myself included. And what I think surprises me, I’m not sure if that’s the exact word I should use, but has overwhelmed me is the number of people we saw. Obviously, Diana’s death was a tragic, shocking death. This is a 96 year old woman, as we said, and two things are extraordinary. The organization of police who are really in a contract, an unwritten contract with the public in this city. The police are here. They’re absolutely everywhere, thousands of them. This is a security hot zone right now, and yet there’s no heavy handed policing going on. It’s more of a police patrol, if you will. They’re there in the background, they’re answering questions. We had to ask them for directions today. And also they’re trying to protect against something as simple as pickpockets on the bridge, where people are spending 30 hours waiting. I mean, just think about it. Now all these world leaders are coming. Princes, princesses, kings, queens, prime ministers, presidents from all over the world are also descending on this city this weekend. It really is an absolutely the most extensive security operation this city, this country perhaps has ever had to undertake. More so, according to Scotland Yard, than the Olympics in 2012, which we were also here to cover. And we thought that was bad. This one, it’s hard to get from A to B, but it’s worth it because there’s a lot of love in all of the crowds, a lot of respect. What was it about this woman, about Elizabeth specifically, that engendered this kind of warmth and love? And I ask that to contrast it, although it’s very early, obviously, but it certainly already seems that Charles is not seen or revered in the same way. I will say another thing that has been remarkable is the outpouring of support here on the streets. Again. Remember where I am. But I obviously also saw all of the footage from Belfast and Scotland for King Charles III.

Jordan That’s not the vibe on social media, where anti monarchists are obviously in greater number, but there have been a number of clips that we’ve seen of him waving off his servants or complaining about ink on a book. Those are the kinds of things that would not even register if it was Elizabeth doing it. Do you know what I mean?

Lisa Laflamme Well, I think if Elizabeth had her fountain pen leak all over her hands, she may have had a few words to say as well. That was really interesting footage to me, because what I thought when I watched it is this guy loses his mother on Thursday. He literally does not have five minutes to mourn. He is immediately launched into meetings because it’s the head of state here. The partnership between Parliament and monarchy is not something taken lightly, ever. So he has, on average, like eleven to 18 meetings a day he’s proclaimed the king. He’s flying to the four nations of the United Kingdom to try, on some level, to protect the bonds of the Union, which are not inevitable. We know that they’re weakening, but I will say only from what I see with my own eyes and all the people I talked to, there is a love of her and a willingness to learn to respect him. They know him so well. So I want to get back to the question about why does everybody love her so much? I think it’s because this beautiful young woman, 25 years old, her father dies, she’s on holiday with her new husband in Kenya in a tree house, which is where they were sleeping and staying at that time. She went into that tree house as the famous quote, as a princess, and she came out a queen, because it was on that almost a honeymoon trip that she learns her beloved father has suddenly died. She flies back to England. Winston Churchill, her first prime minister, is the first to meet her on the tarmac here. I think part of the reason people love her is because they know her like the older generation would know her. They grew up with her. My generation, she’s the only I mean, I’m 58, so she’s the only queen I ever knew. I didn’t know her as a young woman. I certainly knew every time she came through Canada, even as a little girl. I remember very vividly when the queen came and one of my cousins was chosen to hand her a bouquet of flowers. I think every Canadian has something they can have a memory of, because she was the accidental queen. Her father was never supposed to be king, ever. Edward abdicated, and boom. Within seconds, her father, who was living a pretty normal life for a royal, ends up king, and she ends up the first in line to the throne. There’s something to that. She learned on the job. She kept her cards close to her vest. She never shared, really how she felt, what she thought. She stayed very apolitical on all of the issues of the day. And I don’t know, I think all of that has a role in what’s happening right now.

Jordan I want to ask you, as people will watch the scenes over the weekend of Mourners paying their respects, I want to ask you about Monday, because as crazy as the scenes you have just described, sound, that could be just the warm up for the state funeral that’s going to happen. What do we know about it? What details are public? What are we expecting?

Lisa Laflamme Well, we’re expecting exactly that. I mean, there’s going to be millions of people. I mean, there’s already hundreds of thousands. And I’ve been in the city three months ago for her jubilee, and there were 10 million people. 10 million people. Crowded them all, crowded this city just to see this woman, which turns out to be the last time we ever saw her on that balcony to wave to her subjects. So if that was 10 million for her jubilee, they’re anticipating higher numbers for this. So it will be every bit. The Royal funeral will see the powerful cortege through the spectacular streets around Parliament, where she is lying in rest, through horse guards parade up to Westminster Abbey, the iconic abbey that towers over this beautiful city of landmarks. The Abbey holds about 1800 to 2000 people, so every world leader, as I said before, kings, queens, princesses, princes, her own family. She’s chosen the readings, the music. We’re going to see a reflection of her, which is interesting when you think about it. It’s the last thing she will do publicly on some strange level, is the funeral. She chose the way it will unfold, she chose the words we will hear, the music we will listen to. I think that’s quite a powerful final sendoff as she goes and meets Prince Philip. And I think you’ve probably seen all those beautiful artists work that have been created on her, meeting Philip finally and being together again. And that’s another big thing here when it comes to emotions. A lot of people I’ve spoken to have said, now she’s with Philip. Well, now she’s with Philip. He was certainly the love of her life. She met him when she was 15 years old and now they’re together a year and a bit after his death, they’re together.

Jordan What happens after the funeral? And I know nothing is certain right now. I know you’re guessing, but you have a lot of experience in this area. Will there be a discussion about the future of the monarchy in Canada and other commonwealth countries? I know you mentioned there is possibly a willingness to embrace Charles, but just the magnitude of Queen Elizabeth’s personality, how much of the current monarchy was being held together out of sheer respect and affection for this particular woman?

Lisa Laflamme Well, there’s a lot of work he’s got to do, there’s no doubt about it. These are massive shoes to fill. It’s impossible, actually, to replicate what she created over 70 years. He is a 73 year old man. So at the outset, right. Charles is no mystery to any of us. We know everything he’s ever thought about or talked about because it’s been so public, his campaigns. It turns out he was quite ahead of his time when he was being criticized for speaking out on housing and on climate change. These are actually two of the most major issues of our time. But to your point, absolutely. It is not inevitable that the Commonwealth remains united. I will say this, there are 14 countries of the realm, canada is one of them and we have the monarch as our head of state. But the Commonwealth of nations is a broader sense. There are 56 nations. You say this might happen after the funeral. It’s already happening because Barbuda and Antigua on the weekend said they are going to hold a referendum on whether or not they want to remain in the Commonwealth. It’s certainly a debate, a long held debate in Canada. And I think the last poll I saw, which was maybe there’s a new one, but the last one I saw was, I think, around the Jubilee. I think 51% of Canadians, maybe it was a little higher than that, actually felt we should cut ties and not have the monarchy. That is not so simple. You don’t just open the Constitution and change one thing. And I think that’s what people don’t realize. Anyone who covered the constitutional talks would remember this is not for nothing, the idea of changing the way we operate as a nation and with the monarchy as our head of state, that’s not at all to say that it isn’t an absolutely worthwhile debate and we should have it and have it out and determine what’s best for us as a country. But these are all things that will absolutely happen. And I think it’s interesting that now King Charles and Queen Consort Camilla actually came to Canada. If you remember, during the Jubilee, they came to Canada. There was an enormous and beautiful outreach to indigenous communities who we need to listen to them right now. It’s their history, what colonization did to them, that is still we see the scars of it today. So I am a person who says, bring on the debate. Let’s have it. Let’s have it respectfully and everyone having the knowledge behind it, because as you mentioned, social media, it’s a little too easy to just jump on a bandwagon without recognizing what are the implications of this for and against. So, you know what? I’m sure we will have those conversations in the future. We’ve been having them in the past. Why stop now with a change of monarchy?

Jordan It will be a fascinating discussion to see how Canada reacts to this. Thank you so much, Lisa, for this chat and wish you the best covering the funeral.

Lisa LaFlemme So interesting to talk to you, Jordan, and I thank you for giving me the time. Lisa Laflem reporting for City News from London.

Jordan That was the big story. For more, head to thebigstorypodcast CA, find us on Twitter at thebigstory FPN. Email us hello at the biggest storypodcast CA. Call us and leave a voicemail at 416-935-5935 and drop us a rating and a review if your podcast player lets you. Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heathrowings. Have a great weekend. We’ll talk on Monday because, well, here in Ontario it ain’t a holiday..