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You’re listening to a frequency podcast network production in association with City News.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
I say it partly as a joke, partly because I’m a pessimist by nature, and partly because I just like to be prepared When somebody asks me what I think my kid’s going to be when she grows up, I say, well, she’ll probably be fighting in the water wars. It started as a dumb little dystopian crack. But every few weeks now, we all see a story that makes it seem a little less silly and a little more serious water, which at least in wealthy nations, has been taken for granted for so long that it’s been sold off to companies, poured onto golf courses and wasted by the metric ton on lawns in deserts is suddenly an increasingly short.
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Seven states along the Colorado River Basin were supposed to have reached a collective agreement on how to use less water from an ever shrinking river. But they failed to do so.
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We’re just using our buckets from the garage right now and collecting the rainwater. Also, restrictions come into effect for millions of Californians shortly. As the west coast of America continues to experience a crippling drought that many predict will get even worse during the summer.
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Water is everything, and you don’t have to look far to see. How it’s drying up everywhere. You see right here, all of this beach. This used to be underwater.
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It is the lifeblood of humanity and it is in short supply. I’m talking about water. A new UN report has revealed the scale of water scarcity across the world on this World Water Day.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
When the United Nations holds a conference about a vanishing resource, we should probably be paying attention. When it comes alongside a report that says Demand for Water will outstrip our global supply of it by 40% by the year 2030. That kind of math is how conflicts are born. So yeah, all of a sudden, my dumb joke is a lot less funny, and Canada is sitting on a lot of water. The world will increasingly not just want, but really need. We are still a long way from an actual war, but the steps we take next will determine if we get there or not. So who owns water anyway? Especially water on the border between two nations, like say some Great Lakes. How much is there and how quickly will we feel at scarcity? What can be done now to make sure that, first of all, we don’t run out, but also that we know how to handle it when things get tight. I am Jordan Heath-Rawlings. This is the big story. Dr. Jay Famiglietti is a hydrologist, a global futures professor at Arizona State University, and the former executive director of the Global Institute for Water Security at the University of Saskatchewan. He is also the host of a podcast called What About Water? Hello Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
Hey, thanks for having me. The first thing I want to ask you is gonna sound like a joke, and it kind of is, but it’s also not whenever, uh, my wife and I are discussing how to save for our, our daughter’s education in the future. I say, why bother? She’s gonna end up fighting in the water wars. How unrealistic am I being?
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Maybe just a little, and I would advise you to keep saving for your kids’ educations, you know, those water wars? We’ve always had them and we always will have them. I guess the big question is how will they escalate and where will they escalate and you know, I think they will, I think they will in the coming decades. Really depends on, on where you live and, and how scarce the water is. Some real hotspots. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh have always been. Water scarce and always been arguing over water availability. Middle East of course, and especially Israel, Jordan Palestine. Right. And even Northern Middle East. So Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran. So, you know, it, it, unfortunately it’s happening and I, I think there’s the challenge to, to this generation to figure out how we can be using water. Vehicle for collaboration rather in conflict.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
That is a far more comforting answer than I was expecting, even though it’s not exactly a positive answer.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Well, for, let’s start with saving for your daughter’s education and then we go from there.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
That makes sense. I, I wanna ask, in terms of, as you say, it’s, you know, it’s going to escalate and become more serious. There was a study a couple weeks ago that said, demand for water will outstrip supply by 2020. What do you make of that and what happens when that.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Well, first of all, the report is a, actually a great report. There’s a lot to the report and a lot of recommendations for solutions and, and better governance. So it’s, uh, maybe a little bit unfortunate that that’s the, the headline that everyone remembers. But look, that’s the reality. We are facing. We are facing diminishing freshwater availability, um, and a growing population. And it doesn’t mean that we’re all, you know, gonna die imminently because of that. It means that we need to prepare. We know it’s happening. It’s like climate change. I, I would say water in some sense is taken a backseat to, to climate change in our efforts towards, uh, mitigating climate change. So it’s time to elevate water to, to that level, to the level of carbon. I’ve written things along the lines of water is new carbon. It’s time for it to take that, to get in the front seat along with carbon and get that attention.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
How is water currently managed, I guess, and, and we’ll get into what could change or needs to change about that in a second. But, you know, who does it actually belong to? And when I look at the Great Lakes that we share with the United States, you know, how do you divide up that water?
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Oh, the world over, it’s really people that that own the. Okay. What really gets debated is the right to using the water, the right to divert the water, the right to store the water. And for the most part, you know, many countries around the world haven’t inherited this old British water management rule, which really focuses on the surface water, the waters in our rivers and streams. And you know, it’s just some provinces, some states, some countries base it. Does the river run through your, your property or your country? That’s called the riparian, right? Or was there a prior appropriation? Was there some kind of legal adjudication that said you can have X percent of the flow and I can have X percent of the flow? So it, it is complicated. It’s actually quite antiquated and it leaves that groundwater, which is the water that’s stored below ground, we have to pump it out.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
Right.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
And groundwater is really govern. Mainly by who owns the land, that the, that a well is drill. So it’s quite, you know, there’s no easy answers. It’s quite complicated.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
When you look at the current geopolitical situation, where do you see, you mentioned a couple of places earlier, where do you see water becoming something that can contribute to the tensions that we’re already seeing in. And what could that look like?
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
You know, we could start closer to home if we’re in Canada. You know, I didn’t see in the time that I was there, I was there for five years. I did not see a lot of interaction amongst the provinces. Say what? The Saskatchewan River.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
Hmm.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
And its flows from Alberta into Saskatchewan into into Manitoba. There’s not a lot of base and wide discussion base and wide management happening. And so, you know, that can lead to animosity and that can lead to, that can lead to Ill. In the United States, of course we have active discussions going on about how to allocate the Colorado River. Of course it was over-allocated back in the, you know, the thirties and the forties, and now we’re having to bail out from or modify those agreements.
And so I see those tensions actually now happening between states, happening between province. And then there’s always the local tensions really that can happen between neighbours that might share the same groundwater aquifer, for example. And you might be pumping a lot and drawing down the groundwater level and making my, well go dry. And so there’s always those small scale skirmishes that have been going on as long as, you know, we’ve had humanity.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
And here I’ve been worrying about wars between countries and now you’ve got me thinking about provinces getting pissed off at each other, over their own water.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Well, yeah, I do. I think that’s, I think that’s the reality, right?
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
I guess it’s local a all water is local.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
I mean, it’s both. It’s it’s local and it’s regional and it, and it’s global. And what we experience locally really depends on what’s happening regionally and globally. But in the case of some of these water, The water availability that we have access to is often impacted by our, by our neighbors, whether we’re sharing groundwater or whether it’s an upstream neighbor along the river, so it becomes very local and becomes very personal.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
This is me asking a really simple science question, but it’s something that I think myself and a lot of people want to get straight is water, a renewable resource. I mean, we know how to clean it and purify it and desalinize it like. Can’t we just use science to make sure we have enough clean water for everyone? I know that sounds ridiculously idealistic, but we could do that if we wanted to, right?
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Yes. On the science side, yes, we could. We could do that. The challenge becomes so, so right there, you recognize right away that the problem is not just the science problem, it’s a political problem. It’s a social problem, it’s an economic problem, right? There’s political will and a number of circumstances and constraints that we have to consider. Sure, we could desalinate a bunch of ocean water and we would be fine, but you know, that’s, there’s problems with that. What do we do with the brine, right? It’s extremely energy intensive. It may actually worsen global warming, so, you know, it’s not, it’s not that simple. I would say this though, if we had peace on, And we were willing to move water and food around so that, you know, we could grow whatever oranges in Florida and apples in British Columbia, and we were willing to share that food around the world. We would be fine, right? But we’re not every, every nation wants to have its own food security and own water security. And so you can see right there, those political boundaries create a whole new set of constraints that we have to deal with.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
When you talked earlier about, you know, we can prepare for this, what kinds of changes could we realistically, again, yeah, the utopia’s not coming tomorrow, but, but realistically, and I don’t mean personally like, you know, take fewer baths or whatever politically to make sure that, we’re ready for whatever kind of water shortage is coming.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
I think we can, I think that we need, uh, an unprecedented level of international and global cooperation along the lines of what I, of what I just mentioned. I mean, there are wet places and dry places on this, on this earth, and there are better places to grow food, you know, than everyone compared to everyone trying to grow everything within their boundaries. But getting that, you know, political understanding, I think is, is really important. You know, letting our politicians know that as, as people, as the voting public, that it’s critically important that we want to hear about these plans for the, for the future of water. To me, that’s the big, that’s the big driver.
You know, politicians don’t often respond to things that their constituencies are not interested in. So to me that’s, that’s the key. And yeah, we can manage our way through this. There’s no question. We have a lot of efficiencies, a lot of conservation. We have many, many tools. That we can use to manage our way through this water crisis to a sustainable, long-term sustainable water future.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
Okay, so when I talked about water wars off the top, this is why I asked that question because I get cynical because we discuss a lot of problems on this show, and lately there have been a lot of people telling me that the solutions are achievable if we just have an unprecedented level of global cooperation. And I’m not seeing that and I, if we can’t do it for climate change, what makes us think we can do it for water?
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Well that’s an excellent question. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try though. Fair. I think one thing about water and one reason why I’m a little bit more optimistic and you know, I’ve seen it, my timing. I worked for a long time in California, spent about 18 years of my career in California and I really saw the tide turn. I really saw much greater awareness that California was experiencing chronic water scarcity, much greater awareness in industry and agriculture in the government. So one of the things I recognize there, and I, and I hope it, you know, would translate to other countries and and globally, is that with respect to water and water aspects of climate change, they’re very tangible. You know, when you turn on your tap or you go to pump your. And there’s no water there, right? You know, when the quality has been impacted. No one wants to have contaminants in their water, right? We’re seeing the flooding, we’re seeing the drought. It’s really, really tangible. So that is part of the reason why I’m a little bit more optimistic, say with respect to climate change and limiting greenhouse gases about water.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
When you say it’s really tangible, I was just about to ask you, what are the kinds of things that we are likely to notice or be impacted by the most as we continue to see these shortages and, and I mean, you’re at Arizona State right now that school’s got a pretty good golf program. There’s a lot of really good golf courses in Arizona, in the middle of the desert.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
There’s some crazy water use going on. I, I agree. And those are regional decisions about. The economy of a state or a province, and as a scientist, I think the best I can hope to do is to provide the best available science, the best available assessment of water availability so that decision makers know, but also so the general public knows it as well, so they know what they’re giving away when we decide to grant another golf course, a permit, or another big development housing develop.
Grant them a permit for water. We’re we’re giving away shares of our future and we need to make our decision makers aware of that. And that’s, you know, that’s part of my, my role as an educator.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
I’m not necessarily asking about golf specifically, although I personally hope, uh, that we can continue. But when you talk about things that will be unsustainable in the future, give me some of them. What, what are we doing right now that we simply can’t do?
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
So, the biggest use of water around the world, whether we’re in Canada, whether in the United States, any country around the world, it’s, it’s growing. And we do a lot of it with groundwater and a lot of that groundwater is disappearing. And so as that groundwater disappears, that means our food security is at risk. That means our food prices are going to get higher. Right? So that’s one real tangible thing that’s gonna happen. The other thing that we are already experiencing all over the world, certainly in in Canada, in in the United States, is the increasing frequency of a flooding and the, and flooding and drought. You know, California went from, its. Point in its history of existence in late November to something like the wettest winter on on record in 2021. I was still in Saskatchewan and we experienced fires on the prairie fires across all of North America. Zero agricultural productivity. Right. And then followed by the, you know, the BC flooding that happened, uh, shortly after that.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
So this seesaw of. We are experiencing it all over the world, so people just need to understand that it’s, you know, the water. There’s a, a very strong water component of climate change. It’s not just the drinking water, it’s the flooding, it’s the drought, it’s the water availability. And that’s why I hope we can really generate a lot of increased public awareness and, and really bottom up grass roots. Discourse on the importance of water and letting our elected officials know that this is, this is paramount for us.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
This is maybe me just needing a remedial science lesson, but how does flooding impact water shortages? Doesn’t increased rainfall help with groundwater?
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Floods are very episodic. So the Southwestern United States, and California’s a great example.
I mean, California and the Southwestern. Are in the middle of a mega drought, which by definition is longer than 20 years. Wow. But within there, there, there are episodic storms. And so, you know, it’s kind of like, if you think about saving money for retirement or, you know, not having a, not having a job where we, where we compare water to money. You know, the Southwestern United States is broke, but it got a big infusion of cash.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
Hmm.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
And you know that cash will be spent over the next couple of years, but we’re still. In the long term.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
That makes it really easy to understand. So thank you for that. I want to ask about what you see when you think about the future. And I ask this to a lot of our guests, uh, when we talk about climate change or the pandemic, and I’m not trying to be a fear monger. I just, a lot of people are, are worried when they see headlines like the demand, outstrip supply by 2030. When you think about water shortages and the state of water right now, what keeps you up at night?
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Well, you know, it’s the dark side that, that keeps me up at night. It’s, you know, thinking about places like Arizona where I, where I just moved, where there is great interest in continued economic growth, but perhaps not the water to support it. So figuring out how those two are going to confront each other. And what the solution pathway is, is literally the kind of thing that keeps me up at night. But there’s, there’s also the, the darks, the darker side, which is the climate migration side. Right? And it’s already happening around the world. It’s happening in Central America, I think most, most actively. And you know, where do people go and what are they gonna do? And what about their livelihoods when their water situation changes? And that could be the migrant workers. That harvest our food in, in California, if food system shifts away from California because of the lack of water, you know, what happens to all those people? What happens to our indigenous peoples in the north as the permafrost melts and the ground gets very soggy and the snow disappears and, you know, their whole cultural ways are, are changing very, very rapidly, you know, to pace it, which they, they can’t really.That’s the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
And what gives you hope?
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
After all that?
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
Yeah, you gotta gimme something.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Okay. So there are a lot of things and you know, I’ve, I’ve touched on some of them. I think that there are solution pathways ahead of us. There are a lot of opportunities to use water more efficiently, to grow food more efficiently. To distribute water more equitably and there are important conversations on, on all those fronts. So, so that gives me hope. But, uh, you know, I, I always come back to this answer, which is because I’m a professor and because I teach students and because I have graduate students that I train, I do see with every generation of student. Increasing interest in sustainability, increasing interest in protecting water as a, as a basic human right. And so I, I actually feel great about that. I feel I’m not, I’m not ready to throw in the towel, but when I do, I know that the water situation will be in progressively greater hands as we move from generation to generation.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
Jay, thank you so much for this. Uh, it’s been really insightful. I understand it a lot better now. And my last question is, and don’t deny it, you guys are coming for our water at some point. I know you are.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Yeah. I don’t think that’s so, I think that’s funny. So my experience is when I’m in Canada, everyone thinks that the Americans are, are coming for Canada’s. And you know, as an American, I’m here to tell you we don’t even have those discussions. So I will, I will deny it. It’s not on the radar.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
You don’t know under a democratic president, but next time.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
Yeah, well, I mean, there’s that, there is that craziness, which I, you know, I have to, I acknowledge that. But one thing about both Canada and the United States is that we’re fortunate that they’re big. And they have areas that are wet within their boundaries, and they have areas that are dry within their boundaries. It’s the smaller countries that, you know, I, I think we need to be concerned about that are so small that they’re either all dry or they’re all, you know, getting tremendous flooding in the United States. We don’t want Canadian water. Not that it’s not awesome. I, I think we do a great job of managing it, or, you know, we have many transponder waters, not just the Great Lakes, and I think we do a great job of managing it. So again, I think the, the takeaway is that Canada’s a big country, United States, it’s a big country, and both of them are fortunate to have a lot of water within their boundaries.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
Thank you again for all this insight and for calming my anxieties.
Dr. Jay Famiglietti
My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings
Dr. Jay Famiglietti, a hydrologist and professor at the University of Arizona State, and that was the big story. Thus concludes our back-to-back episodes on water. One good one really bad, but enough for you to get a picture of this precious resource. You can find us at the big story podcast.ca. You can talk to us anytime on Twitter at the big story fp n, and you can email us hello at the Big story podcast.ca. If you’d like to listen to more episodes of this podcast or share it with a friend, you can find it in whatever podcast player you prefer or by asking your smart speaker to play The Big Story podcast. By the way, we’d love it if you’d share us with a friend. That’s the real way podcasts grow. Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings. We’ll talk tomorrow.
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