A conversation with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

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Jordan: Yesterday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was at a Honda facility in Alliston, Ontario. He was there to announce a massive investment in electric vehicle production.

Prime Minister Trudeau: Today, Honda is making Canadian automotive history. With this announcement, we will be investing to create Canada’s first comprehensive electric vehicle supply chain from start to finish.

Jordan: Immediately after that announcement, he stepped into a smaller room to sit down with us. With myself and The Big Story team.

Prime Minister Trudeau: Hello everyone.

Jordan: Get as comfy and cozy as you can in a break room in a Honda plant!

Prime Minister Trudeau: Oh no, break rooms are a good places, I have great conversations here always, so glad to do it.

Jordan: The premise on our part for this discussion was simple: to bring context to the latest in what has been a series of electric vehicle investments in Ontario in recent years, but also to bring context to Trudeau’s government’s work on the climate file and how it has grappled with this crisis during its almost nine years in office. Tackling climate change was a large part of Trudeau’s initial appeal as a breakthrough candidate. The carbon tax is probably his singular policy. He has said that Canada should lead the way on climate. So, are we? My next guest, I’ve always wanted to say this, needs no introduction. The Right Honourable Prime Minister Justin Trudeau joins me in a break facility at a Honda plant in Alliston, Ontario where his government has made, in concert with Ontario’s provincial government, quite an announcement. Welcome, Mr. Prime Minister.

Prime Minister Trudeau: Thank you. It’s good to be here, Jordan.

Jordan: Why don’t we start with the big picture on electric vehicles, because that’s what we’re going to talk about mostly today. I want to talk about climate a little as well, and so combining those two things, where do electric vehicles and announcements like this today fit into the big picture of our fight against climate change?

Prime Minister Trudeau: Well, the big picture is actually bigger than just a fight against climate change. It’s the big picture of where we’re going as a country and how are Canadians going to thrive in a very, very different world over the coming decades. And that’s something that we’ve all been thinking about for a long time. And for me, the opportunity to highlight that Canada is and should be seen as one of those places that if you’re buying something that was made in Canada or created in Canada or invented in Canada or whatever, anywhere in the world, you should be able to say, okay, if there’s a maple leaf on it, if it was made in Canada, I know that it was done well, that it paid well to workers. It’s environmentally responsible. It’s probably done in partnership with Indigenous peoples, or at least in respect. That’s a brand that as people around the world, customers and consumers around the world are looking at, okay, I want to be reliable in what I’m buying. I want to be thoughtful about what I’m doing, people should feel that if you’re buying something in Canada, that’s a niche we should own, that is a good brand that people are comfortable, like buying Italian shoes or Japanese electronics, whatever you buy from Canada, it should be okay, yeah, no, this is going to be good quality.

Jordan: In terms of the climate, when you took over in 2015, climate was a big part of your campaign. At the time, I think I’m speaking for the way a lot of people feel is, climate was definitely a concern. We knew global warming was real. We knew it was going to hit us. Over the past eight years, it seems to have hit us faster and at a scale that we probably couldn’t have imagined back in 2015. How has your own thinking on climate evolved from how you saw it as a candidate and when you first got an audit, when you first got an office, to what you see now where you probably see some pretty awful reports frequently?

Prime Minister Trudeau: Well, fighting climate change was one of the things that brought me into politics. I watched what the Harper Conservatives were doing, or not doing, on environment, and that was one of the things that contributed to me wanting to actually step into politics, which is something that for a number of reasons I’d chosen to stay away for or say no to all through my young life. So I came in knowing very much how dire it was, how much the challenges were that we had to face, what I don’t think I gave proper weight to until I was actually really thinking about the public policy angles of it, and what Canada could do, was the opportunity that comes with the terrible reality of climate change. That yes, even as we’re fighting climate change, the opportunity to be purveying solutions to the world, the opportunities to grow industries, to build businesses, to find economic growth in the fight against climate change because people would throw out numbers like a trillions of dollars worth of clean tech that is coming down the line. Well, how do we go from a country that has a big chunk of its GDP reliant on the fossil fuel industry? How do we take that advantage we have right now and have had from the past in energy, and translate that into actually building those solutions of the future so that as the world shifts to other types of energy or certainly very different energy mix, Canada can still be part of it. And it was that sense of the long term that yes, even as we’re seeing the worst wildfire seasons on record, we’re seeing horrible impacts of climate change that’s going faster than never before, that sense for me, that was always the biggest answer. When everyone, Conservative, or anyone would come up to me and say, yeah, but Canada’s only 1% or 2% of emissions, if we stopped everything, the world would still be going to hell in a hand basket, my point is, well, yeah, but if we figure out how to reduce our emissions, then the way we do that will be really valuable to the world and therefore we’ll contribute to Canada being able to thrive in a very changing world.

Jordan: Have we capitalized on those opportunities over the last eight years? And I want to ask you a question that during every election cycle that you’ve run in and your opponents have run in, I’ve asked climate experts to grade the climate policies of the various parties. So grade yourself, it’s been eight years as you mentioned, we just had the worst wildfire season in history. There are opportunities like this announcement, but we’ve also missed a lot of targets in that time. So how would you grade your government’s climate response?

Prime Minister Trudeau: Sorry Jordan, which targets have we missed?

Jordan: I think we’ve missed a couple of Paris Accord targets, have we not? Or are we not on target for that?

Prime Minister Trudeau: No, we haven’t.

Jordan: You got me on that one.

Prime Minister Trudeau: We’re very much on track. See, no, but it’s understandable there enough because we missed Kyoto. We were way from Harper being able to achieve any of his targets. We’ve had decades of government saying, yes, the environment matters, but when comes time to saying to Canadians, okay, you’ve got to pee in the dark and save 3 cents a night, or you’ve got to figure out how to reduce your consumption of electricity or reduce your consumption. People actually haven’t been put on the spot of making those changes because change is hard and change sometimes feels more expensive even if you’re going to end up saving money in the long-term. So we’ve had successive governments, including Liberal governments that have, were very good at creating national parks as political governments.

Jordan: You’ve done lots of that.

Prime Minister Trudeau: But are you actually protecting the areas that are outside of the national parks? Are you actually changing the way the economy works? That has always been much, much harder. And that’s where our decision to bring in a price on pollution and use it as not just something that is going to be fighting climate change, but using it as a measure of affordability to actually put money back in people’s pockets. But also as an argument to global investors coming in saying, look, we are acting on fighting climate change. There’s a steel plant in Hamilton that would’ve been paying hundreds of millions of dollars in climate change and a climate tax on a price on pollution by 2030, but they are now going to be shifting to electric arc instead. So they won’t be using that kind of coal to fire their furnaces. These are the shifts that not just make sense economically, but they actually make sense in terms of good jobs. So actually being a government that is doing things where we’re going to meet our 2030 targets, we’re on track to surpass them, we’re moving forward in a way that no government has ever seen before. That is a significant difference, and that’s significantly better than any other government.

Jordan: Okay. So you nailed me on the targets. I got to point out though that, and I want to talk in a minute about why I thought that way, because I think that’s important to the conversation we’re having. But you also didn’t give yourself a grade, your government grade.

Prime Minister Trudeau: Well, I used to be a teacher. I was in the business of giving people grades. As a politician, you get graded by citizens, and that happens in elections, and it doesn’t really happen in between. Although opinion polls can give you a sense of how people are feeling to a certain extent. But what happens in terms of grading? That happens in the elections. What I am confident about is the things we have done have significantly bent the curve, both in terms of reducing our emissions faster or changing the curve of our emissions more than any of other G7 partners, and we’re actually seeing more global investment. As you heard earlier at the announcement, last year, we were the number three country in the world for global foreign direct investment into Canada after US and Brazil. We’ve seen a 60% increase since 2015 in money coming into Canada because people are seeing that there’s exciting things happening in Canada, we’re aligned on the 2025 year horizon that most big investments are looking at.

Jordan: Why do you think that the average person feels so negative about climate change right now? Obviously it’s a really serious issue when you speak about it. You speak of opportunities in building for the future and investments like this one. There’s a reason that I just kind of assumed that we’d missed some targets because things seem to keep getting worse. And I wonder how you, as somebody who needs to court Canadians votes, but also plan for the future, how do you try to push back against that and saying, this is a problem and we’re dealing with it, but I think an nihilism can creep in where you’re like, everything is going to hell and it’s not worth me recycling or whatever because of it.

Prime Minister Trudeau: And that has been, I think a core question. When I was studying environmental geography at the graduate degree, graduate level at McGill, that was one of the big questions, do you go doom and gloom? Do you try and say the planet is burning. We’re all in so much trouble if we don’t change our behaviors radically, it’s the end of the world if we don’t change and nobody tended to change. People have been trying to do that doom and gloom for a long time, and yet Canada and other countries kept missing targets and behaviors not changing enough. So listen, you don’t, I’ve been out across the country, I’ve seen the forest fires, I’ve seen the floods. I talked to a Saskatchewan mayor years ago who said, we can handle a hundred year flood. We just can’t handle it every five years. And that’s the pace of things coming. And that is there’s a real ease to sort of sit back and say, well, I’m just going to worry about right now and next year or 10 years from now or the next generation. Well, they’re in trouble no matter what we do, so why even bother? And that’s where for me, showing that Canada and Canadians can bend the curve. We can make a difference. We can be bringing forward these solutions because quite frankly, when I look at my kids, I do not want to imagine that they’re going to live in a worse world than I did, that they won’t have the things that we took for granted, particularly in Canada, a country of lakes and forests and beautiful natural spaces that we’ve always taken for granted. The fact that that might not be there is something that I will not accept. So given that I’m not accepting that the future will be worse, I have to say, okay, well then we’ve got to do everything we can now to prevent it because we got to be active on that. And then I look at everything we can do to make sure that as a leader, I’m bringing Canadians along and it’s always hard because as you say, people are anxious about it. Climate change is getting worse. The impact of climate change is getting worse and will continue to get worse into the coming years. The only way through is to minimize how bad it’s going to get 10, 20, 30 years from now by changes we make now and the changes Canada can make are the things that are not just changing our behaviors, but showing the world and creating technologies and solutions for the world that they can then take on that will change the trajectory. China continues to open dozens of fuel of coal plants every single week. These are huge challenges that the world is going in the wrong direction. They don’t necessarily want to be, there’s just no other alternative. So if a country like Canada isn’t the one that can figure out, listen, we figured out the technology necessary to get oil out of oil sands, which wasn’t possible 50 years ago. It was technology that innovated that. A lot of really smart scientists that figured that out. We can be figuring out hydrogen. We can be figuring out small modular reactors. We can be figuring out wind and solar and tidal and whatever else, and more geothermal. We have the knowledge, the land, the resources, the capacity to do it, and we have a government and a series of governments that are willing to lean in to make those investments in the long term. That’s what’s exciting to me, and despite the massive challenge that it represents.

Jordan: I’ve heard you say many times, you just said it at the announcement that climate policy is economic policy, and when the climate seems to be deteriorating more quickly than perhaps we would’ve thought a decade ago, how do you have to be able to adapt economic policy to keep up with that and how do you prepare for the fact that some of the action that may be required might lead to economic pain?

Prime Minister Trudeau: You cannot show me something that is good for the economy, but bad for the environment and genuinely be good for the economy. As soon as you look in a medium to even long term. There are things you can do in the short term and saying, you know what? Let’s just clear cut this forest and sell the logs and we’ll make a lot of money off of that. Let’s just rip it and ship it and drill, baby drill and do all those things. That short term will lead to profits, but in the medium term and long term lead to either more pollution, that’s going to continue to clog up the atmosphere and reduce the quality of life or leave a mess that future generations will need to clean up or won’t be able to benefit from. The idea that you can separate long-term economic policy with what is responsible environmental policy is simply not true. Nobody serious says that anymore. There are politicians who are playing very much on very short-term thinkings, but it doesn’t just apply to economic policy. You can’t show me something is good for the economy, but bad for the community that it’s part of in terms of wages, in terms of social supports. You can’t tell me that something could be good for the economy, but bad for Indigenous peoples and all that and actually be good for the economy.

Jordan: What about things, the real things that are good for climate but bad for the economy? Where do we have to take those steps?

Prime Minister Trudeau: Like what?

Jordan: I’m asking you? Do you see any of those things? Do you think that everything that’s good for climate is also good for the economy and here? I mean-

Prime Minister Trudeau: Ultimately anything that is protecting us from the further impacts of climate change, reducing the impacts of climate change is going to be good for the economy. Anything, the amount of-

Jordan: It’s not great for people who work in oil and gas.

Prime Minister Trudeau: True, but in the short term, if you say that in the short term

Jordan: Yeah, but those are people.

Prime Minister Trudeau: Absolutely. But those people who have skills as pipe fitters, as engineers and chemists, who are very much well employed by the oil and gas companies have skills that are going to be necessary for the energy mix of the future, whether it’s in hydrogen, whether it’s on carbon capture utilization and storage, whether it’s on small modular reactors. I mean, if you’re a pipe fitter working in the oil tent, you can be a pipe fitter in a nuclear nuclear plant or in a geothermal plant or in a hydrogen plant. Those jobs and those skills are going to be there. Where they won’t be there is if we do not do anything other than oil and gas for the next 30 years. Well, when the world finally decides, no, we cannot use any more oil and gas or the carbon impact is too much, or the world’s economy breaks down because climate change has gotten so rampant, those people in those industries will suddenly not have any jobs anymore and won’t have an industry to turn to in hydrogen, in nuclear, in renewables. So those people who say, oh no, we’re protecting jobs in the oil and gas sector. Well, we’re protecting them in the right now where there are very big profits to be made for the next few years for sure. But what happens 10 years now? What happens 20 years from now? What happens 30 years from now? I think of the community of Glaze Bay, Nova Scotia, that used to be a big coal mining town, right? As soon as we started using less and less coal as a country, the mines shut down and a whole bunch of people had to look for different alternatives, and there weren’t many alternatives there, but the world moved on from that. Right now, the world is trying to move on from a lot of our dependency on oil and gas, and if we are not part of thinking what the world’s going to move to and indeed creating what the world moves to, those workers right now and their kids are going to be in real trouble.

Jordan: How do you square that with some of the things that have been done to help the oil and gas industry, like pipelines, for instance, which are not just a right now thing. Those are things that are going to be contributing to the economy 20 or 30 years in the future, and we’re investing in them. Are they good for the economy, bad for climate? How do you see that? How do you square that with kind of what you just spoke about?

Prime Minister Trudeau: That’s a really good question, and that’s something that we had to square right in the beginning. To make the transition, we have to make decisions that are going to be good for the economy, so we have the money to invest in the transition. And the fact that our oil and gas industry was almost entirely captive to the US market and therefore getting a deep discount because of it meant that we weren’t making the kind of revenues as a country that was going to be able to fund the investments and the innovation necessary to get to the next stretch. So building a pipeline to be able to get to new markets to get a better price for our oil is, in the short and medium term, going to be able to fund more innovation and more solutions. Now, not every government would’ve done that. Some governments would’ve said, no, no, we’re just going to get more profits off oil and gas, and we won’t put them into innovation. We won’t put them into green electricity or anything like that. We’re trying to do that because we know that it’s part and parcel of how you secure that better, fairer future for Canadians.

Jordan: So tell me about this announcement today then. I played a clip in the intro, so people know the basics of what it is. What interests me is this is different from announcements around electric vehicles the past couple of years, aside from just the size of it, explain how it’s different.

Prime Minister Trudeau: Well, one of the reasons it’s different is we didn’t have to put up nearly as much money for operations and for production credits. And that’s what we had to do with Volkswagen and with the Solantis investments because we were competing directly with the IRA in the United States, which the Biden administration put forward to try and catch up to the lack of innovation and investment that happened under the previous administration that wasn’t very focused on the green transition or the green transformation. So they put that down and we had to make sure that we were drawing in some EV and battery investments into Canada, so we had to match those in order to draw it in. But having and part and parcel of our thought was once we have two big answer anchor investments, or even a third with Northvolt, then we’ve started to create an ecosystem that is reliable and attractive to other investors. So when Honda came to look at this, they said, okay, you know what? The climate and the environment that we’re in, in terms of investing, knowing that the supply chains are coming, knowing that the critical minerals are coming, knowing that the workers are there, knowing that the government is serious about being committed to clean energy and clean electricity and climate responsibility, it makes sense for us to come be part of the ecosystem that we’re building, and that’s really a perfect example of what governments should be doing. Governments shouldn’t have to support every step of the way, an industry from the beginning to end. We should be able to kickstart something that will become self-sustaining over the coming years. And five years from now, when companies come to invest in taking advantage of the whole context around EVs that we will be building up here in Ontario and across the country, it won’t take nearly as much government investment to make them come to say, oh, no, all the advantages are in Canada. So that’s where picking the path and seeing where the puck is going, where the future is going to be, and getting to it, getting out in front of it, getting a headstart on so many other countries is key to building that long-term success.

Jordan: You mentioned during the announcement, we have an incredibly aggressive EV target of 2035. When I think about electric vehicles, aside from announcements like this, I think about the gap between these new plants and these new batteries and getting these cars on Canadian roads. I don’t make a bad living. I can’t afford an electric vehicle. Not very many people I know can. Those that can in a country like this are concerned about the infrastructure that comes with them and not being able to drive far enough to get to where they want to go. How do you bridge that gap between all this new production and actually making sure Canadians can get into these cars and drive them where they want to go?

Prime Minister Trudeau: Yeah, well, part of it is just sending those clear and strong signals, making sure that we’re showing that we are serious about this, that companies are serious about it, about creating them, about bringing down the prices. Part of it is the direct incentives we give. We’re still giving incentives to consumers who buy EVs. We’re looking at the secondary market incentives as well. We’re looking at trying to make it easier. We’re investing massively in charging stations across the country. But if you think back, any early adopter to anything, I mean, think of someone who bought the first iPhone and think of how that clunk is clunky compared to what our smartphones are today, what our iPhones are today. In the beginning, it takes a little time and people are coming out and saying, nobody will ever buy an iPhone. It’s all the things that are wrong with it when it first came out. It takes people willing to step up and say, no, this is the right thing to do. Even though it’s not widely adopted, I have the ability or the capacity to invest in it now, and I am confident that this is the way things are going, and that’s the decision that we made as a government. We know that the world is going to electrification and towards electric vehicles. How exactly we get there, what the perfect model is going to be? Companies will be fighting hard to figure that out. Ford just recently saw a little bit of a hiccup in their plans. There’s going to be that as we move towards new technologies, but anyone who wants to make the argument that, no, no, no, the world isn’t going towards electric vehicles is not watching closely what’s actually happening and where people want to be and how our confidence both in Canadian workers and innovation and the ability of people to meet this need that everyone has that, boy, we want to be able to save money when we are driving. We want to be able to protect the planet for our kids. We want to be able to do the right thing. It’ll get easier and easier, but if someone doesn’t start when it’s hard, if a government doesn’t start when it’s hard, you’re never going to get there or you will be captive as a customer of some other country that took the chance to do it. We have everything aligned right now, particularly at a time where Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the insecurity of the supply chains we all saw post Covid, realizing reliable, friendly, stable partners who have critical minerals, who have quality communities and great manufacturing installations and ambitious workers. All those things together, is a real advantage, and that’s where companies from around the world are looking to come to Canada to work with Canadians to build that future.

Jordan: I want to talk a little more about getting Canadians on side with climate policy. There’s a lot of angry acts, the carbon tax sentiment out there right now, and what I find really interesting is that support among Canadians for taking action on climate keeps growing, and support for the carbon tax has been falling. What is happening there? What do you see when you look at those numbers?

Prime Minister Trudeau: I see people who are anxious about the cost of living right now, worried about grocery bills, worried about fuel prices, worried about the way the world is going, shifting geopolitics, climate change, still lingering impacts of the pandemic, worries about, there’s a lot to be worried about. And a price signal on pollution is economists, it’s the kind of thing economists love because it’s the cleanest, most responsible way of doing things. It’s the least expensive.

Jordan: There’s a ton of support for it.

Prime Minister Trudeau: Exactly, but it’s a price signal that people see.

Jordan: Yeah.

Prime Minister Trudeau: It’s something you see and it gets, when gas price goes up by 20 cents, people say, oh, it’s a carbon tax, even though it was only 3%, the 3 cents that it increased in April, and we actually increased the carbon rebates at the same time. But the context is people are looking for things to be frustrated about because they’re feeling frustrated, and it’s a very easy target. But part of the context is people don’t actually have to make a choice now. People don’t actually have to say, okay, if it’s not this, what is it? They’re being promised right now, by people who are opposed to it that, oh, they’ll do things differently and it won’t be this. Okay, fine, you can say that now. But when we get closer to an election, people are going to say, okay, what is your plan? Because all the experts, all the economists out there will be saying, okay, any other plan that’s actually going to fight climate change is probably going to be more expensive, won’t put as much money back in the pockets of the middle class as this one does. So they’re going to have to compare against an alternative, but right now, we’re a long way from an election. It’s easy for people to be frustrated about a whole bunch of different things. My choice as a leader is, okay, do I bow down to that? Even though I think it’s wrong? I think people are wrong to be worried about this. I understand why they are. I’m going to patiently wait and continue to make the conversation and point out that most families get more money back from the carbon rebate than they pay in pollution. Nobody’s actually hearing that yet, but I will keep saying it and keep showing it so that by the time a year and a half comes and people make a choice, they will be more informed about what the alternative is. Because for me, politics is about doing the right thing. Doing the right thing for the long term, not necessarily the popular thing in the short term. Right now, if I wanted to do the popular thing in the short term, there’d be a very different path, but I learned from my father, and mostly I learned from looking at my kids, that if I don’t do the things that are right for their future 10 years from now, 30 years from now, then the time I spend away from them, the sacrifices they went through because I was in politics, won’t have been worth it.

Jordan: The last thing I want to ask you, because we’ve got to wrap up now, is about that kind of communication that you say you’re going to keep doing until Canadians understand. Your team reached out to us to come on this podcast, you’ve been on Today, Explained. Susan Delacourt, The Toronto Star, wrote that we should plan to see you on more podcasts. What is it about either this medium or the communication strategy in general that you’re hoping to use to make your message resonate with Canadians?

Prime Minister Trudeau: I learned a long time ago that my favorite kind of interview was sitting down and talking for 15, 20 minutes with a radio host, and just having a real conversation. And podcasts represent the kind of thoughtful conversation that most Canadians end up having in their daily lives with their friends, their coworkers, their family, about big issues. And for me, one of the real challenges in politics these days is the polarization, the sound bite-ization, the snippets on internet or YouTube or TikTok or wherever, that end up carrying an entire political debate. Well, as my friend Naheed Nenshi, former mayor of Calgary has often said, politics should be done in full sentences. Or Jed Bartlet said, what are the next 10 words, right? I mean, the idea that we need to have full conversations, because politics is hard and the decisions people take around public policy are not black or white, are not easy. There are all sorts of trade-offs, all of priorities that come into it. Anyone who has a simple, easy solution that fits on a bumper sticker is probably wrong. And bringing Canadians in at a time of diminishing attention spans and screaming headlines and clickbait that every media organization is looking for to try and get those eyeballs. You see a level of abbreviation and simplification of political messages that I don’t think is serving Canadians well in a really complex and complicated time in the world right now. So having real conversations about where we’re going, what kinds of trade-offs, what we’re thinking as we’re doing different things is part of connecting with people and bringing them along on the journey that we all have to have as citizens in a democracy to think carefully about what kind of future we want to build for our kids, and who is working in ways that actually align with your own priorities and your own hopes and fears.

Jordan: Prime Minister, thank you so much for doing this. Anybody who can quote Jed Bartlet is always welcome back on this podcast. Best of luck.

Prime Minister Trudeau: I’m just glad you didn’t ask me about sports. Other than that, we’re fine.

Jordan: I would have loved to, but-

Prime Minister Trudeau: Another time.

Jordan: Thank you so much.

Prime Minister Trudeau: Thanks, Jordan.

Jordan: Justin Trudeau, prime minister of Canada. That was The Big Story. For more head to TheBigStorypodcast.ca, you can also send us your feedback on this episode. The way to do that is via email hello@thebigstorypodcast.ca or by phone with a voicemail, 416-935-5935. Of course, we extend an open invitation to other federal party leaders if they’d like to appear on this show. They can get in touch with us the same way Mr. Trudeau’s people did. The same way anybody listening to this podcast can with that email address or that phone number I just mentioned. The Big Story is available in every single podcast player, and you can hear it on your smart speakers just by asking them to play The Big Story podcast. Joseph Fish is the lead producer of The Big Story. Robyn Simon is also a producer on this show. Stefanie Phillips is our showrunner. Mary Jubran is our digital editor. Diana Keay is our manager of business development. Chloe Kim is our editorial assistant. Sound design on this show is done by a team of Robyn Edgar, Mark Angly, Kristie Chan and Christian Prohom. And I, of course, am your host and executive producer, Jordan Heath-Rawlings, and together we’re the Frequency Podcast Network, a division of Rogers. Thanks again for listening and we’ll talk Monday.