Jordan: I thought that I could say I’m speaking for everyone in the country when I say social distancing sucks, but I know it’s necessary and we will get through it. I thought I could say that for everybody, but apparently not.
News Clip: Canada First! We have, you know, a bunch of yahoos out in the front of Queen’s Park sitting there protesting that the place isn’t open, as they’re breaking the law and putting everyone in jeopardy, putting themselves in jeopardy, putting the workers in jeopardy, and God forbid, one of them end up in the hospital down the street.
Jordan: Now I’m as mad as Ontario Premier Doug Ford is at those people who choose to show up for protests and flout the rules. But I’m also concerned about the bigger picture, about more than a couple of hundred idiots. I’m worried that protests like this are evidence of cracks in the dam. Because I know, I can feel it, that the weather will get warmer and this will get harder and the numbers will go down and more people will be receptive to the message. Maybe not a protest message, but the idea that it’s okay to bend the rules. And so they’ll bend them. And other people will see them do it, and that’s how this whole strategy starts to fall apart. Here’s the thing though, there’s a limit to what people can take. And well, yes, fine those idiot protesters as much as you want, you also can’t tell people that they can’t sit on their porches and chat with their neighbours when the weather’s next. You can’t tell them they can’t take a walk in the park. Not forever. So where is the right balance? How much social distancing can we take collectively without cracking? And when some of us do cave and break the rules and everyone sees it, what happens to the whole, we’re all in this together part of the effort? What message should governments be sending to people right now to keep them focused on the task at hand, but also give them enough hope to hold on? We’ll ask somebody who specializes in human behaviour in a crisis, as soon as Claire brings us up to date on everything that’s happened with COVID-19 in Canada this weekend.
Claire: Well, we are expecting this week to hear more from provinces, including Ontario and Quebec, on how they plan to ease restrictions around COVID-19 in the coming weeks. But Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says none of the plans involve immunity passports because there’s still no proof that those who recover from the virus can’t become infected again. Well, Manitoba plans on ramping up surgeries that were postponed because of COVID-19. This is because the number of cases in the province remains low, so some non-urgent surgeries, including cataract and orthopedic, will start taking place this week. In Ontario, the education minister says all publicly funded schools will remain closed until at least May 31st. He says the online learning will continue and that the province does not see a need right now to extend the school year. As of Sunday evening, 46,895 cases of COVID-19 in Canada with 2,673 deaths.
Jordan: I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings, and this is The Big Story. Caroline McDonald-Harker is a sociologist at Mount Royal University in Calgary, also the director of the Centre for Community Disaster Research, which is relevant today, obviously. Dr. McDonald-Harker, thanks for joining us.
Caroline: Thanks for having me.
Jordan: My first question is just, as somebody who observes human behaviour, how would you say Canadians in general are doing in terms of compliance with social distancing measures?
Caroline: I think overall, as a general rule, Canadians are quite compliant. I know there’s a stereotype about Canadians being very polite, but along with that, I definitely would say that we are more conformist. There is more a sense of collectivity in Canada and collaboration, and so historically, and even today during the current pandemic, I would definitely say that there is a desire and a willingness to sort of abide by these regulations that were being given by government and health officials.
Jordan: That’s interesting. Would you say that kind of changes nation to nation or by geographic area? How do you find that varies?
Caroline: Absolutely. If you look at human behaviour, it is definitely influenced by culture and social interactions. So you look at perhaps some European countries, we know and we’ve seen in the media that they had to implement stricter enforcement because of the way in which people interact. So Italy, for example, there was a tendency not to necessarily follow some of the physical distancing regulations. And so their government had to move to much stricter regulations, and sort of, you know, a stricter lockdown. You look at, you know, our neighbours, the United States right next to us, you know, there’s definitely the sense of independence and individualism and so some regions, you know, had more difficulty with some of these physical distancing regulations. And you still look at the climate, you know, when you compare Canada to the US and how we’re taking it very seriously here. And you know, you hear a lot of people in the US saying, well, I can’t believe so many stores are closed down. It’s business as usual here. So there definitely are cultural differences in the various regions and countries.
Jordan: So in our case then, we’ve been at this for six weeks and we’re doing fairly well in terms of compliance. How long could you usually expect that to continue? Like even Canada would certainly have a breaking point, probably.
Caroline: Right, absolutely. And that’s a great question, because I think at the beginning we definitely recognized it was a global health pandemic. We saw that it was affecting other countries, and we took it really seriously. We recognized there are severe implications for older and vulnerable people, and that they were very real. So we were fortunate enough to see other countries’ experiences. And I think that made a lot of people here in Canada take it more seriously. You know, and there was a lot of fearfulness and uncertainty out there, which has been really tangible. Now, in the first few weeks, people were very compliant. Of course, you know, the first week or two, there was a bit of hesitation. There was a bit of disbelief. There was some denial. But after that, people really settled in and recognized that we needed to do this, not only for our own health and safety, but that of other individuals, especially those who are vulnerable. But there is a point where we might start to see that people aren’t taking it as seriously as before. And this is often referred to as crisis fatigue. And this just refers simply to becoming immune to warnings from government and health officials. And oftentimes it’s a result of, you know, this constant fear that’s associated with repeated warnings about the pandemic. And usually you see that start to set in at about, you know, the six, seven, eight week mark, where people are really starting to think about, can I do this longterm? And more importantly, what are the impacts on my mental health?
Jordan: That was going to be my next question is, is there a point where the mental health costs become worse than the risk?
Caroline: Right, absolutely. And you know, we’ve been talking a lot about the physical health implications. And of course that’s important, right? We want to make sure that people remain healthy, and I think everybody understands that. But the other side of the coin that we haven’t talked a lot about is what are the mental health implications of cutting people off from their interactions with other people and their connections. We are by nature, social beings. And we cannot survive without contact with other individuals and without having interactions with them. And we found, you know, many novel ways of communicating, you know people are doing Zoom parties or having work meetings through other means of technology. And I think it was new and novel at the beginning and people were excited about it, but people are starting to grow wary of sitting at home and not being able to go out and talk with people and connect with them. And it is having an impact on their mental health. It is taking a toll. And we need to talk about that. We need to take it into consideration because we have to look at, you know, what are the lives that we’re saving by continuing to practice isolation versus what are some of those longterm impacts? And we know in my field that there will be an increase in things like domestic violence, child abuse, divorce, mental health issues like PTSD, depression, anxiety. So I think it’s important to look at it holistically and weigh the benefits versus the risks. And that’s not necessarily conversations we’ve had in the past. We’re starting to have those conversations and I think there are definitely important points and issues to discuss.
Jordan: When you do that research that you mentioned, did you kind of find a timeline at which, I guess maybe I’m explaining this wrong, but those axes cross and it does become a much worse for our longterm mental health to do it versus the danger? Like, is there a timeframe?
Caroline: So there’s not necessarily a specific time frame that can be applied to all situations. So a lot of the research that I do is based on natural disasters. So I’m conducting two large scale disasters. One looks at the 2013 Alberta flood and more recently, the other one looks at the 2016 Fort McMurray wildfire. And what we found is that there were severe mental health effects, not only immediately after, but more so in the longterm. So a year out, a lot of the data we’ve been collecting was at the one year mark, two year mark, and three year mark, and what we know from the disaster research and my own research findings corroborate this, is that the mental health impacts lasts anywhere from three to five years and some even lasting up to 10 years. And so that’s why it’s important to be aware of these things. You know, in the immediate disaster situation, people are scrambling, right? They’re going on adrenaline, they’re scrambling, they’re trying to do what they need to do in the crisis mode. But when things start to settle down a little bit, that’s when people realize, Oh, this is affecting me a lot more than I thought it was. I’m sleeping less. I’m a more emotional. I’m losing my patience. I’m having conflict in my relationships with friends and family. And people often only recognize the signs of the mental toll that it’s taken on them months after the disaster has taken place. So that’s why I’m saying we need to have these conversations now, so people can be aware of some of these signs that they’re not doing well from a mental health perspective, and reach out and access some of those resources. Because if they don’t, those symptoms won’t go away. Those mental health effects will not go away on their own and they will last well into the future. So it’s important to address them immediately.
Jordan: Well, I just kind of wanted to ask you about the herd mentality that’s keeping us all in our homes and keeping us all listening to the government. And you know, if people are getting antsy, like what that looks like when it starts to fracture? Cause I assume like it starts small and then escalates. But that’s just my assumption.
Caroline: Yeah, that’s a great question. When you look at how we act as human beings, we often look to others around us for social cues in terms of, you know, interpreting what we’re going to do and that guides and directs our own behaviour. So, you know, at the beginning when we were told to practice physical distancing, you know, some people were not heeding that advice and they were going out to stores and they were carrying on. But there was an, I hate to use this term, but it’s probably the best term to describe it. There was somewhat of a backlash and you saw that, you know, through social media, you saw that among individuals talking in workplaces where people were chastising others for going out and they were saying, look, we’re making this sacrifice and it will be all for nothing if you’re not also doing it. This needs to be a collective effort. And so, you know, the first few weeks, people who are hesitant to follow those regulations and isolate themselves realized, well, I need to do it, everybody else is. And so, you know, people who are hesitant, followed suit. But you start to see people’s behaviour changing, given the certain social context. So to use, you know, our environment right now in Canada, so warm temperatures are starting to arrive because it’s spring, right? So what we’re seeing, and we’ve seen this across Canada, is that it’s actually driving many people outdoors, and it’s leading many to worry that physical distancing guidelines are being left by the wayside. And warm weather really tests our collective resolve to maintain physical distancing. And we saw that here in Calgary. You know, there were thousands of people who were out walking, jogging, riding their bikes, and they were not maintaining the recommended physical distances between one another. But everybody else was looking and saying, well, look at these people out the window of my home, they’re going for a walk. We should as well. So there definitely is, as you referred to it, you know this herd mentality. Well, if they’re doing it, why can’t I do it? And that can actually break down people who have a strong resolve to follow regulations. And especially in a situation like this where our behaviour impacts one another. So if some people aren’t heeding the advice for physical distancing, then it’s not going to be effective. So, you know, you have to look at how people’s behaviour is being affected by those around them. And that’s why it’s important for government and health officials to continue to emphasize the need for us to follow these physical distancing regulations. Because if we don’t, we’re going to be under lockdown, a very light lockdown, at least here in Canada, for much longer.
Jordan: How can they do that compassionately and with an understanding? Because one of the things that I saw that sparked my interest in talking to someone like you was, the city of Ottawa telling people that they should not enjoy a beer with their neighbours if they’re separated by a fence or like chat from driveway to porch. And I saw a lot of people saying like, look, it’s warm now. You have to give us something or this isn’t going to work. And it made people feel like the government was really being tone deaf. And I wonder how they can continue to convey that message, but also understand what people are feeling right now?
Caroline: Right. Well, it’s very interesting because the message that we’ve received from government officials is stay at home. And they mean that quite literally. However, you can see how people try to find loopholes around that. So many people who are going out to grocery stores every other day, as opposed to just going once a week, to limit their exposure and exposing other people. You know, when people are saying, well, I’m allowed to do that, therefore I’m going to. Or people are saying, well, you know, as long as we maintain six feet between the two of us, we’ll be fine. So people are trying to be creative and do things like go to parking lots and bring their lawn chairs and sit in a circle six feet apart, and they think that’s okay. And I understand, you know, that this is difficult for all of us. But I don’t think the government has been clear enough about what this means. And when they say stay at home, they literally mean that. But that has not been communicated to individuals because we’re now seeing in the research that six feet is not enough. And so we just don’t know enough about this virus to even risk trying to find ways around it. And I feel that’s what people are doing. And I understand it has an impact on their mental health. It has an impact, you know, on their emotions, their state of mind. But we’re only being asked to do this in the short term, and let’s be honest, what are we being asked to do? We’re not being asked to go out to war. We’re literally being asked to stay at home. It doesn’t mean you can’t work from home. You know, some people can’t, but some can. It doesn’t mean you can’t watch television. It doesn’t mean you can’t talk to people on the phone, through text or via video conferencing. We’re quite fortunate during this time to have access to all these technological means. You know, and you talk to people of older generations and they say, what we’re being asked to do is not that difficult. Why are people having such a hard time with it? And they are.
Jordan: Is there any work that you’ve done in your disaster research that might help people kind of find ways to manage their mental health during this? To dig in for the long haul if it’s needed, and still stay sane? Is there anything people should be doing now at home as opposed to accessing resources down the road?
Caroline: Yes. Well, many of my research findings have indicated that people were more resilient when they had a strong network. So what does that mean? It means that they were able to reach out to other people, to communicate with them, to share their feelings, and talk about how it’s impacting them, and be honest with them and receive that support in turn. So as I mentioned earlier, you know, we are by nature social beings and we thrive on support from other people. And so my recommendation, based on my findings, is that we continue to maintain those connections with people. That we check in with them, we ask how they’re doing, we in turn share some of our feelings, and that we’re open and honest about it. And that we say, you know what? Today was a good day. Today I settled in and things seem normal. Or, you know, today wasn’t a good day. Today was really hard for me, and I became emotional, or I had trouble focusing on what I was doing. And when you’re able to relate to another individual, and you’re able to sort of share your own personal experience, people identify with that, and it helps people feel as though they’re being heard and they’re understood. And I would definitely say that’s probably one thing that we have not done, you know, is talk about how it impacts individuals. So our government officials, you know, every day they’re doing updates. Every day they’re sharing statistics about the numbers. But that lacks a human element. And if we really want to connect with people and help them understand the severity of the situation, we need to draw on some of those personal stories. Whether it be, you know, sharing a story or hearing from someone who went through or who was affected by COVID-19 and shared their experience. Or talk to people and hear from people and what their coping strategies are. And I think we need to put a human face to this. And that’s something that we’ve not necessarily done. And it’s important if, you know, we want to continue to be able to thrive and persist through these challenging times.
Jordan: That’s really interesting that you said that because my mind immediately went to the early days, when you’re a member of Prime Minister Trudeau was isolating because his wife had been sick and he was also like single parenting and he was late for calls cause he was putting the kids to bed or whatever. And that was the most connected, I think I felt to a public official during this.
Caroline: Absolutely. And we want to see that other people are going through the same thing we are. You know, there’s this running joke about, you know, people’s hair looking scraggly and everybody cutting each other’s hair. But when you see your prime minister come out with really long hair and unshaven, people relate to that. And that’s what keeps people going, is being able to see the human side of things and even using humour with it. And that helps us understand that we are all in this together, no matter how difficult we feel it is for us, we recognize and see that other people are going through the exact same thing. And you know, we can sort of sympathize with one another. And that’s important to building, strengthening and maintaining a sense of community. My recommendation is that people try to use face to face technology a lot more. So whether that be something like Skype or FaceTime or Zoom. Because when we’re able to see a person, it feels like, more so like we’re connected to them. You can sort of read their nonverbal cues, you can see their facial expressions, and it adds a human element. So my recommendation is that people try to have those face to face virtual sort of contacts with one another as much as possible because that goes a long way to helping sort of fill that void that people are feeling by not seeing others
Jordan: Dr. McDonald-Harker, thank you so much for taking the time, and because we’re on audio only now, before you go, I have to ask you, how is your hair doing right now?
Caroline: Oh, good. You know what? My hair is all one length, long and blonde. I don’t have to do anything but put it in a ponytail. How is your hair?
Jordan: It’s a damn disaster, but thanks for asking. Thanks again, and be well.
Caroline: My pleasure. You as well.
Jordan: Dr. Caroline McDonald-Harker, sociologist at Mount Royal University in Calgary and director of the university’s Centre for Community Disaster Research. That was The Big Story. If you would like more, all of our episodes, we’re up to almost two years worth of them, are at thebig storypodcast.ca. You can also talk to us anytime on Twitter at @thebigstoryFPN. You can email us or send us a video or send us a voice memo anytime. Direct it to thebigstorypodcast@rci.rogers.com. And of course we are, wherever you get podcasts, on Apple, on Google, on Stitcher, on Spotify, find us wherever you like. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings. We’ll talk tomorrow.
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