Is screen time still bad for kids?

Jordan There was a period of time it lasted a few weeks. It was earlier this year when my social media feeds and and group chats were filling up with a very specific kind of picture. You’ve seen these pictures too. Lots of us have probably posted them. In the photos, an older man or older woman or an older couple are holding a little baby, aged anywhere from six months to two years old or so. The older folks look overjoyed, the baby looks like a baby. And in the captions of these photos, something that generally goes like this: this is the first time little Billy has seen his grandparents that wasn’t through a screen. When the pandemic pushed everything online, kids from infancy to teenagers instantly became almost exclusively digital creatures.

For teenagers, as I understand it, it wasn’t much of a shift. But for younger children at every stage of development, it was a big change. Granny and grandpa now lived on mom’s phone. The teacher and classmates were in the laptop. Their friends were on the iPad or the gaming system. And as I watched, my own toddler learned to swipe and dial and paint and learn and play all on these devices, I thought back to the early 90s, my own childhood, begging my parents daily for an extra 30 minutes of screen time so I could please watch one more show. And I wondered, is screen time still bad for kids? If it is, does it matter? Is there any escape?

I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings. This is the final part of Interconnected on The Big Story: technology and children. Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin is the chair of the American Academy of Pediatrics Council on Communications and Media. She is an assistant professor of pediatrics at the Mayo Clinic. Hello, Dr. Ameenuddin.

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Hello, Jordan. How are you today?

Jordan I’m doing really well. My kid is online, I’m sure somewhere as we talk.

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Not surprising.

Jordan No, well, here’s the thing, take me all the way. I say all the way because it feels like a decade. But take me back to late 2019, early 2020. What did we think we understood then about screen time and devices for kids? And I’m here, and here, I’m talking particularly non teenagers like, let’s say eleven and under.

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Sure. So pre-pandemic, which of course seems like a very long time ago in a whole different world, we at the American Academy of Pediatrics were still cognizant of screen time, or device use, as we now oftentimes call it, and its effects on children, because it was something that we’ve seen that has steadily increased and certainly evolved over the last few decades. And so in my childhood, where screen time really meant sitting in front of a big TV, we now know that children of almost any age can access those same programs and multiple other avenues to connection and entertainment through the palm of their hand. With smartphones and increasingly smaller and more accessible devices. So we always knew that screen time or device use was something that was beginning to be an increasingly important, or at the very least, pervasive part of children’s lives. But I think that brought into really stark focus the ubiquity of it once the Pandemic started.

Jordan Yeah, and we can talk about the Pandemic in a moment, because that’s really what’s driving this conversation. But maybe just at the time you mentioned this had already been on the rise, though slowly, for decades. What do we know, or at least what did we think we knew about what too much screen time does to kids or too much device use?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin So for a long time we have known, and we have a pretty good body of data that shows that screen time, which is more often than not a sedentary type of activity, is something that can be linked to obesity in children. It’s a little bit less clear the other effects it has, but we have had a growing body of data that has shown that screen time can have an effect on children’s mood. It can certainly have an effect on their sleep quality and duration. When it is excessive, it can potentially affect even their academic performance. And depending on how they use, it can be potentially beneficial in some ways, but also potentially harmful. So it’s not all good or all bad. So much of it depends on how it’s being used.

Jordan That was my next question, which is, we’ve said device use, we’ve said screen time. I am probably from the same era as you were growing up. Screens were television or movies and perhaps some early generation video games. Obviously, that’s all out the window now. Can you explain the difference between sort of what we traditionally think of as screen time and what’s available to kids today?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Well, that’s a great question, Jordan. Certainly, probably in our generation, we tended to see screen time as something that was passive. It was something that we consumed as children and later as adults. What we have now with the Internet 2.0 is a much more interactive form of screen time. And with social media, it’s not just children or teenagers or adults being fed things. That’s still, unfortunately, a big part of it, but it’s also them being able to put their own opinions out there, to share their creative endeavours, to be able to connect with people across the world, to be able to connect with family members, which became incredibly important at a time when there were lockdowns in multiple places.

Jordan Let’s talk about the Pandemic then, because that’s kind of at the heart of this whole special week we’re doing on technology. And we talk about it was on the rise slowly for decades. My younger brothers watched more TV and played better video games than I did, and it felt slow but steady. How quickly did that change when the Pandemic struck? And what do we know about the rapid rise of technology among kids?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Well, again, I think that the pandemic in some ways obviously changed what was available for entertainment options, connection options, but it was something that wasn’t all that new to pediatricians who’ve been interested in this issue and other experts and researchers. I think what changed is that when people had very limited opportunities to connect with each other in the normal face to face way or activities were shut down and people had to tend to stay at home and stick to themselves. They found that the screen time. Which was always there and may have been a pretty big chunk of their children’s lives before. Suddenly became a lifesaver in some ways.

I do want to point out that when the Kaiser Family Foundation did a survey of media use in children back in 2010, they found that the average child spent over 7 hours a day engaging in some type of media use. And so it wasn’t really a new phenomenon. And 7 hours is roughly the time one might expect them to spend sleeping. It might even be the amount of time they spend in school that’s close to a third of the day. And of course it’s only increased since then. So we already knew that it was a huge chunk of their lives. But the pandemic just kind of shone a light on it. And for better or for worse, lawmakers and other experts started to take notice of something that pediatricians and many other experts had been trying to bring to their attention for quite some time.

Jordan You mentioned it’s only risen since 2010 when it was already at 7 hours a day. What do the latest numbers say in terms of average use from kids?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin That’s a good question and I apologize, I don’t have the latest numbers in front of me. But we do know that there is a lot of media multitasking that can take place and so sometimes the combined effects of that can really be closer to ten or 11 hours.

Jordan So we did another episode earlier this week about attention spans and I wanted to ask you about multitasking because this is one of the things that that expert who’s just written a book on this told me can really impact the growth and sustainment of attention when we’re switching between screens, switching between tasks. And that is only exacerbated in children whose minds are still developing. Like what do we know and what do we not know yet about what this is doing to our kids?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Well, that’s another great question. Some of the evidence that we are continuing to collect through studies has not been as conclusive as some of the other studies. But we do know that for example, when preschool children are shown certain cartoons that are very fast paced, it can affect their level of concentration. And so there have been some studies that have shown a connection. Hard to say whether it’s causal or just an association between increased screen time and attention deficit disorder.

Jordan Things changed so rapidly when the pandemic began, and I know how long it takes to gather data about what’s happening with kids and what’s happening to them as a result of recent changes in their environment. As a pediatrician and as a leader on this council, what are you looking to learn over the next, what, three, five years about how things have shifted in children?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin We are looking to see, in addition to evidence we have seen so far about how screen time and device use, media use increased, we are interested in seeing how this has affected the mood of children. Has it led to increased anxiety, depression? Has it led to a greater sense of connection? Has it made an impact on their cognitive development? And certainly, have we been seeing any other issues come up? Like, are we seeing more attention deficit disorder? So there are lots of things that we are keeping our eyes open for. And given the fact that we’ve been in the pandemic for a little over two years now, we will hopefully start to see some good quality research coming out in the near future.

Jordan I will leave the comprehensive research in what we don’t know aside for a moment, and I also want to take the opportunity to ask you for your advice or guidance. I guess as somebody who works in pediatrics and media, I’m going to ask a few questions that sort of come from me and from parents. And the first one is just I’m assuming that I’m not alone in this, but I’m often floored by things that my five year old daughter can do with technology and devices. I found her filming a video with the iPad that I’d left on the couch the other day. I have no idea how she got into the photo app and flipped it to video, but she knew what she was doing. She was telling me she was making a movie, and I don’t know where she picked this up. How quickly do kids become literate in this stuff?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin It is amazing how quickly children can adapt. We oftentimes look at this generation as what we call digital natives, while those of us who are from older generations are digital immigrants. We didn’t grow up surrounded by technology in quite the same way that they have. And I have to say it was a little bit of a joke for a number of years, but really there is some truth to this that we started to wonder if infants opening up a smartphone, doing the swipe could potentially be considered a developmental milestone, because I see infants in the office where multiple things are happening. A child is not happy to be in the doctor’s office where parents will often try to calm them down by showing them a video or letting them play with a smartphone. And it is not at all uncommon to see kids who are less than a year of age trying to mimic that swipe to unlock a smartphone.

Jordan And this is when they then start trying to touch screen or swipe regular television or regular laptops?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Right? Yes!

Jordan So here’s the root of the conflict I feel, I mean, honestly, I’m proud of my daughter for picking up this technology like it shows quick thinking and adaptive skills, as you mentioned. This is the conflict though, is–I understand that all the downsides that can come with sedentary screen time, right. Obesity, lack of exercise, I wanted to get outside and be physically challenged, et cetera, et cetera. At the same time though, when I look at the last couple of years, it’s become clear to me that she’s going to be using this technology for the rest of her life and quite likely her success in future education or jobs will depend on being proficient with it. So in that sense, taking away a screen that she’s using to do something interactive can feel like taking away a book, which I would never do. Right. These are life skills that she’s picking up now, right?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Well, that is a dilemma and you are certainly not alone in wondering where exactly we strike the balance. And what I advocate for as a pediatrician and as someone who has followed media use for the last couple of decades is that parents really try to find a healthy balance. We know that kids are surrounded by technology. It would be nearly impossible to really cut them off completely. I would say that we’ve probably learned more anecdotally than through anything else that even if kids are not brought up with technology, they can learn quickly and they can adapt. So I’m less worried about them not having skills. I think also at the speed with which technology evolves, they will be catching on eventually.

So what I advocate for is really just having a balance, making sure that your children are spending some time doing physical activity, some time in face to face interaction with people, whether it’s family or peers their own age or just other people out in the community. And also making sure that their media use, their device use or screen time is not eating into really important time that they also need for growth and development like sleep or time that they need to do schoolwork. So really trying to make sure that you have a little bit of a balance. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to set up some general guidelines to say you can engage in this media use so that parents can also help kids develop healthy habits regarding the way they engage while also trying to make sure they have some alternative activities.

Jordan One of the things you mentioned in there was making sure that they have some face to face time. What do we know about the difference between face to face time in real life versus on a screen. I mean, I know during the pandemic that was how kids often saw grandma and grandpa, right?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Absolutely. Yes. And so, again, I think screen time in and of itself is not all good or all bad. The fact that older adults, grandparents or others who had medical conditions that might put them at higher risk for complications during the pandemic had the ability to FaceTime or to Zoom or to connect, kind of face to face, at least virtually, was a lifesaver for so many people. I think also for children and teenagers who are marginalized and who may be in communities where they don’t have that support system, this can be a real boon to them.

But to answer your question about what do we know about real face to face versus virtual face to face interactions, we know that nothing really substitutes for face to face interaction. But when we couldn’t do that, this was an amazing way to use technology in a way that helped preserve social connection and social bonds, even if it wasn’t the ideal. So it’s hard to say. We know that it’s not going to be exactly the same, but this was the next best thing. And even today, I have families who have relatives overseas, and this is a way for them to see their grandchildren grow up, which is just amazing, and certainly more than my grandparents had access to many, many years ago.

Jordan Anecdotally because I know we don’t have the data yet. What do you and your colleagues think we’ll see when that starts coming in, in the next few years? What have you noticed about changes in kids related to technology during the pandemic?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Yes, so I have to admit some of my knowledge of this comes from before the pandemic, where parents will sometimes say, it seems like my kids are very comfortable texting and not as comfortable talking to their peers face to face. And again, this was pre-pandemic, something that I think has only increased during the Pandemic with the restrictions in place. So it’ll be interesting to see if our younger generation will feel comfortable talking with people face to face, or if it just feels safer and more comfortable to do from behind a screen, maybe not even with the camera on.

Jordan Here’s my last question. We talk about limiting kids screen time. We can talk about access to devices and using it for good purposes instead of passive purposes. Is there any going back? Even if we wanted to, it feels like it’s too late, and this is sort of a fundamental evolution–digital native, as you mentioned, of how kids are raised now.

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin I truly think there’s no going back. And I would venture to guess that in the next ten years, technology will have evolved to an even greater degree, that what we’re doing now might seem quite outdated. So I think screens are here to stay. I think technology is here to stay. I think the responsibility we have as adults is to try to create a safer online world for children. And in the United States, we have increasingly asked our elected officials to hold technology companies accountable to make sure that, for example, children’s information is not being collected online, that children are protected from some of those targeting and anti privacy data or software that is out there. So I think we have a role to advocate more for our children as we know that technology will continue to be a big part of their lives.

Jordan So they’re going to cross the highway anyway. All we can do is try to hold their hand or slow down the cars?

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Or build bridges so they have a safe pathway.

Jordan Dr. Ameenuddin, thank you so much for your time today.

Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin Oh, you’re very welcome. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me.

Jordan Dr. Nusheen Ameenuddin of the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Mayo Clinic. That was The Big Story. And that was our themed week on how technology is changing humanity. I hope you like it. We’d love your feedback, positive or negative, we’d love to do more themed weeks like this. If there is interest from listeners in exploring some things in a deeper fashion, you can find us by heading to thebigstorypodcast.ca. You can talk to us anytime on Twitter at @TheBigStoryFPN. You can email us[click here!], and you can call us and leave an old fashioned voicemail. They still work 416-935-5935. Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings. I am off for a couple of weeks now, hopefully to unplug. You can look forward to some great guests hosts on this show. I won’t spoil the surprise. I’ll be back July 25th.

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