A Canadian astronaut on planning his trip to the moon

CLIP You’re listening to a frequency podcast network production in association with City News.

Jordan Heath Rawlings You are listening to a Frequency Podcast network production in association with city.

It might seem that we talk about space a lot these days, so much so that it’s just kind of another place that humans go. There are always people on board a space station now, for instance, of course, Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos send up rockets all the time. Sometimes with celebrities like William Shatner aboard them to the limits of Earth’s atmosphere. There are God knows how many satellites in the sky right now, and there are more all the time. Space can seem like that space just up there, but that is just space. That’s close to space. It has been a long, long time since humans went to—if you’ll pardon my exaggeration—real space.

CLIP That’s one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.

Now that is deep space out to the moon and beyond. That is where one tiny thing, hundreds of thousands of miles from home can kill you in seconds. That is where for the first time ever, a Canadian astronaut will be headed next. It’s been 50 years since humanity went to the moon, 50 years since we even traveled out of low earth orbit. This mission will change that. It is not an exaggeration to call this humanity’s first real step towards Mars and beyond. And our guest today will be one of four astronaut charged with taking it.

I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings. This is The Big Story. Colonel Jeremy Hansen is a Canadian astronaut. He was recently announced as a crew member on the forthcoming Artemis II mission, which will make him, in fact, the first Canadian to travel out to the moon. Hello, Jeremy.

Col. Jeremy Hansen Hello. Thanks for having me.

Jordan Oh, we are always happy to talk about space on this program and I’m so excited that you’re going. Maybe you could start, take me back to the moment that you found out that you would be on this mission heading out to the moon. Where were you? What was it like? Put me there?

Col. Jeremy Hansen Yeah, it’s different moments of realization. I think the biggest moment for me is actually the day of the announcement, cuz that’s when it became very, very real for me. Prior to that, you just never know it’s gonna happen. But I did get a call from the President of the Canadian Space Agency, Lisa Campbell, about two weeks before the announcement where, you know, she basically said, “ok it’s time to, to commit, uh, to assigning a a crew to this mission. We’re gonna announce it with NASA and we’d like you to represent Canada on this mission,” and that was also a pretty big moment for me. It’s like, okay, this is really happening. And, uh, it, I started to, you know, talk to my family about it. But what was different for me was like, I would add things in, like, I’m going to the moon or this is the spacecraft I’m gonna fly on. And before that it just, it wasn’t quite like that.

Jordan So for those who don’t follow space as closely as we do on this program, um, can you briefly explain the mission? What is Artemis II and what is it designed to do?

Col. Jeremy Hansen Sure. So the Artemis program in general is taking humanity back to the moon and onto Mars, and in order to get there, there’s just a lot of steps along the way. Artemis I was a mission with no human crew and it was to test the vehicle first test flight of the vehicle. Artemis II is the first time crew will fly on this, this huge rocket in this new spacecraft called Orion. And our job is to test it, to support human life and to do all like the manual flying that needs to be done, and for humans to go into deep space for the first time in over 50 years.

And then on Artemis III, we anticipate humans will return to the surface of the moon. And so Artemis II buys down as much risk as we can. We do everything we can as if we’re going to the surface of the moon to figure out, you know, what problems we might have and to, and to troubleshoot.

Jordan And can you explain, um, what your role in the mission is? Do you know exactly what you’ll be doing or is it just kind of a crew of four and, and you all do, uh, what needs to be done?

Col. Jeremy Hansen Yeah, it’s more the latter. We’re a crew of four right now. We have to figure out with the team what needs to be done. And we have some ideas. We know we have some. You know, it’s some manual piloting evaluations we have to do. We obviously have to, you know, fly into space and fly back. We’re gonna image the moon, we’re gonna do some exercise equipment testing. We’re gonna do some life support equipment testing while we’re up there, but we don’t really know who’s gonna do what. We’re gonna have to distribute those tasks as we go along. A lot of it isn’t really decided. I mean, we will work closely with the engineers to figure out what we have to do when we have to do and who’s gonna have to divide and conquer to get it all done.

Jordan I called you, Colonel, when we introduced you. I read your bio. You’ve been, uh, trying to be a pilot, basically going back to your boyhood. Do you want to get your hands on those manual controls during that time? Like do you think about that?

Col. Jeremy Hansen Oh yeah. No, I’d love to. I mean, that’s definitely. Deeply ingrained in me. Um, that’s one thing we’re pretty clear on that everyone’s gonna have an opportunity to evaluate the vehicle, cuz when you have a test program, it’s uh, it’s important to get as many perspectives as you can and the maximum number we’ll be able to get is four. And so there’s value in making sure everybody does some of the manual flying. So that’ll be a pretty neat treat for me. I’m looking forward to that.

Jordan You know, you mentioned that this mission won’t actually land on the moon, but it is a multi-day mission that goes around the moon. Can you kind of explain for us how that swing around the back of the moon works and what the so-called free return trajectory is? Like, what kind of maneuvers are you gonna be doing out there?

Col. Jeremy Hansen Yeah, okay. It’s kind of neat. I’m still kind of getting used to it myself. So we launch off the planet, we go into a low earth orbit, sort of think of it as a similar orbit to the International Space Station. That’ll take us about an hour and a half if we do nothing after that, you know, initial burn to kind of put us in the right orbit, if we do nothing, we will reenter the Earth 90 minutes later. That’s a free return trajectory in and of itself and that’s kind of a safety blanket for us. So if the vehicle’s not behaving well, we can be back in the ocean in 90 minutes. And then if everything is looking like it’s, it’s going in the right direction, we’re going to boost our orbit and we’re gonna go in this really amazing orbit. We’re gonna go out roughly 60,000 kilometers, somewhere around there, from the earth. So really, really high orbit. Like this is beyond the geo stationary belt and everything. We’re gonna go through all of that stuff and we’re gonna come back in and again, if nothing, um, if we don’t do anything, we will reenter off of that orbit. So that would be about a 24 hour orbit to fly that far into space and come back. And that gives us a nice opportunity to test a whole bunch of aspects of the vehicle and do some manual flying and some actual simulated dockings with our upper stage, um, that got us into that orbit. And then if all of that goes well, we will do the trans lunar injection, which will also be free return, and that’ll give us all the energy we need to fly out to the moon around the moon and back to earth, and again, if our engine failed after that trans lunar injection, we would still have an opportunity to come home. As long as we can survive the eight days, we have a chance to survive and get back on the planet. And so this free return direct trajectory, as you leave Earth orbit, you have all this energy, you’re going really fast, close to 40,000 kilometers an hour, and you will fly out towards the moon. The whole time, Earth will be trying to pull you back. And we will be slowing down relative to the Earth, will go around the moon. The moon will do the last part of it, and it will pull us around itself and then Earth will pull us back home and uh, that’s a free return trajectory.

Jordan Man, that is cool. Do you ever think about that moment, uh, in the 24 hour orbit where you’ve checked it all and everything’s working and you know, you look at each other and you’re like, it’s all good. Let’s go out around the effing moon.

Col. Jeremy Hansen Yeah, we talked about that. The go for TLI, you know, there’s a term we heard in the Apollo era. We haven’t heard that in, uh, in over 50 years. And so go for a trans lunar injection. And, uh, there’s a, you can’t see my face, but there’s a little smile, a little smirk on my face when I say that. I know we’ll be big smiles in the, in the capsule when it’s time to go for TLI.

Jordan How much control will you guys, uh, have over the craft at that moment when you’re doing that swing around the moon? You mentioned you’ll be doing some manual piloting, but what’ll be done from the ground? And as you mentioned, what’ll just be done by the gravity of the moon itself?

Col. Jeremy Hansen So it is a free return trajectory, like we’re saying. So we don’t have to do anything to get the spacecraft back to earth. But you do still have to keep the, the spacecraft healthy. So you have to manage its attitude in space. You have to manage its temperatures, um, you know, what the sun angle is, if you’re getting enough power. All of that stuff has to be managed. It can be managed from the ground. They proved it on Artemis I, obviously they did all of it from the ground. And part of our job will be to prove it can be done manually by the astronauts if we ever need to. And, and that’s kind of the difference. You know, we, we know how to do robotic missions, but when you put humans on board, you want to have backup options so that those humans have a fighting chance of survival if something breaks, right? You know, if Artemis I had failed and the spacecraft was still out there, it would be a big bummer, but nobody would’ve died. But when you have people on it, you want a chance at being able to save your own lives.

Jordan I have to ask if you’re at all disappointed that you won’t be landing on the actual moon, you’re gonna be there, you’re gonna be so close, like you might never have another chance at this.

Col. Jeremy Hansen The thought like, or term disappointment does not cross my mind. I mean, this is. This is an important step forward. I’m super excited to be a part of it. Would I ever like to walk on the moon? Absolutely, a hundred percent. But it’s, uh, it’s not disappointment. There’s, there’s not even a sliver of disappointment. But I know when I’m looking at that moon though, would be a part of me is like, oh, man, would, would it ever be great to go down there and walk around a little.

Jordan I wanna ask you about the moon in the big picture, kind of, because we recently did an episode about, uh, the potential of mining on the moon. There’s some really valuable stuff for humanity there. We’re also eventually gonna record an episode about the possibility of moon tourism in the decades to come. What does the moon mean to you? And like, how do you feel about things like mining and tourism and business concerns and, you know, real earth politics coming to it? Cuz you must be, I mean, in order to be an astronaut you must be pretty idealistic about this stuff.

Col. Jeremy Hansen Yeah, I definitely am. I think, you know, I have a lot of respect for, for Mother Nature, a deep appreciation for, you know, a long-term plan to have a sustainable existence in our, well, I mean, not just on our planet, but in our, in our universe. And so, yeah, I think you have to be smart about it, and you have to have a collaborative mindset. I never subscribe to the, you know, we should never do any something we, we have to evolve. We have to progress, but we have to be intentional. And that just means, you know, conversation. Thinking things through. I love the idea that we’re committed to going to the moon to exploring it. I love the idea that we’re thinking about using resources there. And at the same time, I like the fact that the conversation includes things like responsible use on the moon and ensuring that we can have an enduring presence on the moon because there are ways to mess that up. And if the only driving factor was the bottom line, that wouldn’t be enough for me. It has to include both.

Jordan This is your first time going into space and as you mentioned, first deep space for humanity in 50 years. What goes through your head when you think about the moment you, uh, and your fellow astronauts, first of all see the earth from space, but then I guess I also read that as you’re on your trajectory, you’ll be able to kind of see the moon way out in the foreground and then earth like a quarter million miles in the distance. What do you think about that when you picture it?

Col. Jeremy Hansen Yeah, I’m kind of shaking my head here a little bit. It’s, it’s hard to, hard to believe that I’ll have that perspective. I’ll see the, the earth getting smaller. I’ll see the moon getting bigger, and eventually I’ll see the, the earth from the perspective of the moon. You know, I’ll look through the moon at the earth. Uh, that’s, uh, it’s an incredible perspective. I think, you know, you were talking about, you know, us collaborating basically to do things properly, to do things better on planet Earth, and as we go into the solar system, and I think that perspective is really, really, really important. And the fact that there will be four sets of human eyes out there looking at it I think will remind humanity to consider and ponder that. And I think it’s important. We’re doing great on the planet, but we’re not doing everything great. And we have to figure out how we work better together as a collaborative, how we get the eight billion people rowing in the same direction. We have big global problems. I talk with my three kids about this quite a bit. I mean, concerns them. They’re like, what are we doing? And we really have to figure out how to work together if we’re gonna solve these global problems that require global solutions. And I think Artemis is just one more example of how we can do incredible things when we set big goals, we have good intentions, we attract people to come and work collaboratively. We can essentially accomplish the impossible. And it gives me a lot of hope and I, I hope it gives others that same hope.

Jordan What do you say to your kids about going to the moon and being on this mission? I imagine it’s tremendously exciting. Uh, it’s gotta be for them, you know, something really cool that dad is doing. But as you mentioned, you know, like survival is not guaranteed. This is a test mission. Like how, how do you navigate that with your kids?

Col. Jeremy Hansen Yeah, the conversations haven’t really gone in that direction. I’ve sort of explored that a little bit with them just to see if there’s anything lingering there. I think it’s just too far in the future and so it’s not top of mind for them. Right now they’re in that excitement phase. I know that we’ll have some of those conversations and we’ll, we know there’s risk that we will be accepting. I say it all the time and the crew says it all the time, like, we have great faith in our team and we do. We don’t just say that, that’s not a pleasantry. We really do. This team manages risks every single day for a living, right? You know, as we’re chatting, there’s seven human beings on the International Space Station I mean, that’s been truly paving the way for what we’re doing and going back to the moon. And we manage big risks on that space station every single day. So we have a lot of faith in this team and it doesn’t mean that we. We can ensure survival, we can’t. We will accept some risks that if we just have a bad day, then that’s just the way it went. But by and large, we will know what those are and we will have decided those risks are worth it. And for any of the ones that we can mitigate with backup systems, we will have a backup plan for.

Jordan This mission is a proof of concept, as you mentioned. You know, it’s two of three. And, and the eventual plan is to be on the moon, uh, and go to Mars. What are the questions that this mission in particular, um, needs to answer in order for it to be successful and for, for NASA and the CSA to keep on schedule and keep this progress going?

Col. Jeremy Hansen Well, I hope that, uh, you know, regardless of what we find on Artemis II, that we will keep going, um, you know, programs like this and big ambitions like this, they will meet with challenges. We had a really clean Artemis I mission, so that can kind of lead you into this false security that you know we’ll have to have a clean mission every time to keep going.I hope that’s not the case. Um, no matter what happens at Artemis III truly hope that humanity has the perseverance to keep going. But to make, you know, for us to easily roll into Artemis III, into the, you know, current architecture of Artemis three, um, obviously the crew needs to survive the vehicle, um, you know, needs to be able to be piloted manually. We need to be able to establish the docking, um, characteristics of this vehicle cuz it will have to dock with a lunar lander. And I think those are probably the biggest ones.

Jordan Is there anything else that you think about beyond the simple functioning of a successful mission and you know, the wonder of going to space. Like what are the chief things on your mind?

Col. Jeremy Hansen Well, the chief things on my mind are, are really, are the, the technical responsibilities. You know, it’s at least 18 months away. Um, but we have a lot to figure out. And you know, maybe to someone who’s not as ingrained in this business, it might not seem like that complex a mission, but we know it’s very complex and there’s a lot of complexity to it, and there’s just a lot of things we have to figure out if we’re gonna get everything done. The other thing that is on my mind is, you know, how do we ensure this mission contributes to some of the stuff we were talking about earlier, which is motivating and inspiring humanity on the planet. This is a very inspirational moment, and it can be. And so how do we enable that? And you’re doing that right now. You’re part of that mission. You’re helping to share with others. I’ve been speaking a lot about, um, you know, this international collaboration. This is a great example of American leadership in my mind, of intentionally creating space for a country like Canada and other international partners to come along and share their genius. Canada has some incredible genius. As the Canadian Space Agency, we’ve identified that the commercialization of space robotics is becoming a true reality. For the first time in history, we’re very well positioned, so we’ve taken some steps to make sure Canada can continue to contribute and shine in that area, and those jobs of the future will be in Canada. We’re talking about the delivery of health in remote areas of Canada with respect to how that overlaps delivering healthcare on the moon and Mars. And so using the inspiration of space to bring together the genius across Canada to build these solutions. We’re thinking about the same with food if we can’t grow food and have food security in the Canadian Arctic, how can we expect to have people surviving on Mars in the future? And then we’re also thinking about climate. Space is not the solution for climate change, but it is one pillar of the solution in that if you’re gonna take the heartbeat of the planet and really be on the same sheet of music with respect to climate change science, space is an important part of telling that story and gathering the data. And going back to the moon is a great opportunity for us to look back on our planet and be reminded of the importance of climate change and climate adaptation in our future. And so like, those are just four key areas, but because of this American leadership, it has put Canada in a position to truly shine and set these sort of priorities that are, that integrate into a broader strategy to live better on planet earth.

Jordan Colonel Hansen, thank you so much for this. Best of luck preparing for and embarking on the mission, and I hope you get to go back and put your boots on the moon one day.

Col. Jeremy Hansen Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Jordan Colonel Jeremy Hansen, a Canadian astronaut and a crew member on Artemis II. That was The Big Story. If you’d like more from us, including several episodes where we talk about space, though, not where we talk to anyone who’s actually going to space. You can find them at The Big Story podcast.ca. You can talk to us on Twitter at The Big Story FPN or via email helllo@thebigstorypodcast.ca. If you feel like giving us a rating or a review, just head to whatever podcast player lets you do that, and we’d love to see it or just tell a friend about the show. Tell ’em to check it out, see if they like it. We’ve made a lot of friends that way. Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings. We’ll talk tomorrow.