Jordan: Today is the second birthday of The Big Story. We made it, Claire.
Claire: Woo! We’re two. We’re toddlers.
Jordan: We’re toddlers. We’re officially about to get more difficult to handle. I want to ask you just a few questions about this year before we get to our panel today, which we’ll talk exclusively about what a year it’s been. So, Claire, what’s been your favorite story to cover in 2020? And I ask this, knowing that many people don’t have favourite stories because it’s been a hell of a year.
Claire: Yeah. I just like the episodes we do with people who are a part of what’s happening. People who can offer new information while also making sense of all of the garbage that we see on social media.
So, I mean, I know people want a distraction from the coronavirus, but I’m, you know, as scared of it, but also fascinated by it. So I loved having two regular guests of ours, Dr. Fisman who’s an epidemiologist and Dr. Warner who works in an ICU, just because both of them have at once scared me and reassured me about the coronavirus.
I know that’s kind of twisted, but those are the episodes that I liked the most.
Jordan: At least they make you feel like you kind of understand what’s happening on the ground, which I feel like it’s been hard to grasp that at times this year.
Claire: Exactly. I really appreciate that.
Jordan: Here’s my other question for you before we let our guests talk. We’ve done so many episodes since all this started on how quickly the world is changing and how this will impact this or that and the other thing, and how these changes will stick around forever. And then I always think about how quickly humans want to go back to normal. So if I had to ask you, Claire, of all the things that we’ve talked about, what do you think will change and stay changed? So that if we’re we’re chatting five years from now, when we’ll be seven, we can say this is something that changed during 2020.
Claire: Yeah. Well, there are a lot of things I hope will change. And I mean, I hope we don’t fall back into old habits and forget everything that we’ve learned over the past three months.
One thing that we keep hearing about is how there were warnings about the coronavirus way before any measures were actually taken. So I hope that we’ve learned our lesson here, and that the next time experts are screaming at us that something is coming and we need to do something now, before it’s too late, that we listen to them. That’s the biggest one for me.
And then there’s little things that I think will change, like the work from home thing, which we’ve done an episode on. I think that will obviously stick in some form for a lot of people. And then another little random thing is just being able to call a doctor and get a prescription over the phone. It’s so simple, but if you think about it, why have we not been doing that before?
Jordan: I was talking with someone earlier today who made a point that they actually let one of their employees walk in February because he wanted to work from home full time and they didn’t want to set that precedent. And this person was a good employee, but they didn’t want people to think that they couldn’t come into the office.
And so he left their company and six weeks later, every single person in that company was working from home. And none of them have gone back to work yet.
Claire: Yeah. That’s how it’s going to be for a while, I think.
Jordan: Yeah, 2020, we made it halfway through, we made it to our second birthday. I don’t know what else to say other than it’s been a heck of a year, and we’re going to talk about that.
Before we do, I want to say thank you to you, Claire, for putting up with me and making sure I don’t screw up too bad. I want to say thank you to the people who work on this show that don’t often get enough credit. That includes our digital editor Annalise Nielsen, our audience development lead Jennifer Guay, Ryan Clarke, who you know as the associate producer of this show who makes it all sound so good. And Stefanie Phillips, who, as we work from home is watching over all of these recordings. She’s listening to all of them. She’s making sure my mic doesn’t cut out that the levels are okay. That I actually remember to hit record when we start talking, which I have forgotten to do a couple of times. And she’s listening right now and she’s going to host a couple episodes of the show next week.
So say hi, Stef, let the people hear your voice. And give us one thing that you’re going to talk about next week, and then I promise I will get to the guests.
Jordan: Alright, hit the music!
Birthday number two, I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings, this is The Big Story. For our special episode and also just because we wanted to talk to them. We’ve brought back two of our favourite guests, both of whom have been very busy this year in various ways. First we have Sarah Boesveld, a writer, an editor, a columnist, a frequent guest host of this podcast. She does it all. Hi, Sarah.
Sarah Boesveld: Hey Jordan, good to be here.
Jordan: And we have Fatima Syed, formerly of the observer, now of the logic. She’s been covering Coronavirus every day. She covers business and technology and she’s really smart. Hello Fatima.
Fatima Syed: Hi Jordan. It’s great to be back.
Jordan: I’m so glad to talk to both of you and so glad to not have a specific topic to cover.
Instead I’m just trying to peer and read the bookshelves behind you, which I can’t do. It’s too out of focus.
Sarah Boesveld: I told you lots of Louise Penny in our preamble conversation. Mystery novels.
Fatima Syed: You can see the Harry Potter collection, right?
Jordan: Speaking of news stories of 2020, how do you feel about rereading that now, Fatima?
Fatima Syed: I have thought about it many, many, many times, just because for the longest time Harry Potter was just the book I could escape with. It’s the perfect read. You can read it in a day. You feel better afterwards. And I am firmly of the belief that a book can be separated from the author.
So that’s my 2 cents on what’s going on.
Sarah Boesveld: Like, I guess you can’t really read it with looking for transphobia, like hidden in the characters, I don’t know, any of the monsters or…
Fatima Syed: See when I open Harry Potter, I’m eight years old again. So that’s how I want to keep it.
Sarah Boesveld: Well, that’s a beautiful thing about books, especially fiction. It’s just that escape hatch, right? You know, either into nostalgia or just into a whole other world. And that is what these Louise Penny novels behind me definitely do. My life these days is a little caper, a little mystery novel.
Jordan: Escapism is good. I do feel just speaking of Harry Potter quickly, that someone pointed out to me that in those books, Harry does spend an awful lot of time going into the girl’s bathroom, which is something that didn’t appear in the same light until after J K Rowling’s comments. And now I see those excerpts and I’m like, I don’t know.
Sarah Boesveld: I can’t believe she let him in there.
Fatima Syed: I don’t let myself think about it. I refuse to let all external conversations ruin it for me.
Sarah Boesveld: Do not ruin this for her.
Fatima Syed: I’m not letting anyone ruin it.
Jordan: We can cancel the author without canceling the book, because otherwise we’d have to cancel like the entire cannon of male literature pretty much.
Fatima Syed: If you start thinking about it, everything has to be canceled then.
Jordan: Yeah. Hopefully including this year. My first question for both of you, Sarah, you go first, has this year felt long or short to you?
Sarah Boesveld: It has felt very, very short, mostly because I have collective amnesia about anything that happened prior to COVID-19. And in preparation for this conversation today, I sort of did a little Google about what had even happened this year prior to the pandemic. And it’s like, ‘Oh, there was a, you know, horrific plane crash and you know, in which 176 people died in Iran’.
And there was Harvey Weinstein found guilty and there was, you know, the impeachment hearings and there was just so much. And I mean, that was all even like, January, February, and everything in between. I’m missing so many that I’m sure we’ll discuss, but that stuff used to all feel like a really big protracted news event, and I mean, it just whizzed by.
Jordan: Fatima, what about you? Cause you’ve been doing like daily COVID updates. So I imagine if it’s felt long to anybody.
Fatima Syed: I’ve read everything that has been written on coronavirus. I mean, probably not, but I like to think that I have, because we put together with these daily COVID-19 roundups at The Logic that are very extensive and go from Canada around the world.
Just the sheer volume of things happening globally is exhausting to think about. And it’s not just pandemic related, it’s everything. It’s finance, it’s employment. It’s social change. It’s civil unrest. It’s the refugee crisis is still happening. Remember that? There is way too much going on for any one human brain to process. And I have no clue how we’re all still standing right now on June 23rd, 2020.
Jordan: How do you deal with that?
Fatima Syed: You go for long walks every day and try and shut everything out for an hour.
Sarah Boesveld: Yes. I mean, I have a toddler and that has been a challenge in trying to do any semblance of work, as well as childcare, which is a job in itself. But I think having a toddler has really helped me get through this time because they are living minute to minute in the moment. They are finding joy in these tiny little things that, you know, you just take for granted or hadn’t noticed ever, I mean, since you were that size. And it’s a really nice break from the news, which you can kind of put over there when you’re busy chasing after a little person.
Jordan: Does your toddler understand anything about what’s going on right now?
Sarah Boesveld: No, absolutely not. He’s totally oblivious, like no idea what’s going on. Doesn’t even sort of say, ‘I miss daycare, why am I not going to daycare?’ Mostly because he is just starting to kind of, you know, say, ‘want this, want that.’ So he hasn’t said ‘want daycare’ yet. So, you know, thank God.
Jordan: What’s been the most interesting angle to you guys of either the Coronavirus or the civil unrest and police brutality. I don’t say the biggest story because I don’t want to have to choose between two totally world altering events, but you know, what’s the most interesting look into what’s been happening?
Sarah Boesveld: I really have been fascinated by the changing of behaviours, aspect of it. And I think also with the police brutality and, you know, anti-racism, that we’re all being really called to step our act up on. That’s a lot of really looking inward and changing how we act, and just sort of looking behind something invisible and really do some internal soul searching in some ways to just kind of think about, are we doing a good enough job caring for our collective world? And I think if the environment was still in this picture in a big way, you know, it hasn’t been enough in our conversation, it’s there too though. But are we thinking hard enough about the way that these systems that we’ve taken for granted really impact people beyond ourselves? And so I think it’s kind of that individual to collective relationship that I found really interesting because I think with COVID, it’s very much like, ‘am I doing my part to stay home and stay safe? Am I washing my hands enough? So that that person in a longterm care home, or who’s really, you know, in an age bracket or is immunocompromised, are they safe? Are they going to stay alive? And that’s on me, that’s a responsibility. And then certainly on the police brutality side and anti-racism side, it’s like, am I saying something when I see racism? Am I checking my myself? Am I checking my privilege? Am I also really looking into whether the police should be funded the way that they are. And am I taking some action to, you know, participate in this democracy in a way that is gonna make me a good actor, rather than somebody who’s just sort of a passive bystander, or who says, ‘ah, like I don’t care that doesn’t affect me directly in my life, so I don’t care’. So I think we’re being challenged in that way. And I find that so, so interesting.
Fatima Syed: For me. I think it’s the way different things are colliding, things that I wouldn’t have imagined colliding before. You know, I would never have projected or predicted that a pandemic would meet a civil unrest movement or civil rights movement, the way that it has. And so much of everything going on is so connected and so linked intricately together. It’s kind of mind blowing to think about. If we weren’t all sitting at home and if we weren’t all restless, we wouldn’t have all spilled out onto the streets and protested the way we have globally. If we weren’t all sitting at home and craving connection with societies, we wouldn’t have used technologies in ways we’re using it right now. If there was no COVID-19, we wouldn’t have been seeing tech companies step up and start making changes that we’ve been asking them to make for decades.
It’s a weird thing because everything is dark, but at the same time, it’s kind of amazing how it’s all coming together and how you can see change happening, even if it is stone by stone, or ripple by ripple. And that’s kind of really cool too, to connect those dots in my head.
Jordan: Everybody who gets into this business wants to cover the stories that change the world, right? And I think it’s incredible that you guys are doing that right now. And then we’re just talking to the people who cover the stories that change the world. But the one thing we keep coming back to whenever we cover COVID and sometimes when we’ve been covering the protest as well, is how much of this change is going to stick? And, you know, travel’s going to change forever and childcare’s going to change. And Sarah, you mentioned longterm care homes and all this kind of stuff. And office work, office work’s going to be dramatically different. And every time we kind of bump up around, what’s it gonna look like in the future?
Some of the experts say, ‘well, humans have a real need to get back to normal’. And that we might just fall back into the same pattern as soon as we get a chance to.
Sarah Boesveld: But what we’re finding though, is that normal isn’t working for everybody. And that is what has been going on. You know the pandemic has highlighted some real existing problems.
And the exciting thing though, is that there’s an opportunity for us to change in a sustainable way. And I think Fatima, some of the tech companies are talking about working from home, and talking about some changes that will actually really affect the economy, the working economy, and then certainly childcare as well. We haven’t seen some real meaningful change on that front.
But we have people who already know and have the solutions to these issues, having a little bit more of a platform now. And again, because people are at home, they’re listening, they’re paying attention. The next thing that’s needed though, is some real heft behind that to make change legislatively.
You know, have companies really decide that they are not going to be in a good position if they don’t act. And I think that pressure, that will remain to be seen, whether we can kind of keep the sustained pressure because there’s a lot of fatigue as well. We’re all tired. So you just talked about how this year’s been a minute and a marathon at the same time.
Jordan: Fatima, do you think the tech companies will make longterm changes?
Fatima Syed: I think they’ll have to make some kind of change after this. I think, you know, the world’s kind of going through purgatory right now. We’re seeing where all the gaps are. We’re seeing where all the mistakes we’ve made, and no one more so than the big corporations and governments alike.
And I think if we really come out of this pandemic and nothing changes, then I have no clue what we went through it for. And I think they’re being pressured to think about that. Whether it is on climate change, because it is being talked about in the periphery, or it’s about work culture. Tech companies are learning that you don’t need to have employees in the office for work to still happen.
That’s going to be a game changer for moms, for commuting, for people who live far distances, but still want to be employed. For people who are supporting their families and still working full time. I think that’s going to be a game changer for work culture. It’s going to be a game changer for women, especially.
And then Sarah had mentioned childcare. From a government standpoint, we’re learning that our systems need to be strengthened, whether it’s to support people who are unemployed or people who are in longterm care homes, or just people who need access to basic facilities like food banks or healthcare.
So COVID-19 really put a pause on everything and showed us where all the holes are. And if we come out of this and not do anything, I don’t think anyone’s going to be happy with that. Not after everything we’ve been through.
Jordan: I didn’t put this in the notes that we were going to talk about, but you both kind of touched on it and we’ve seen research that the real brunt of the economic fallout of COVID-19 has fallen on working women. What needs to change, how does that need to be addressed? Was this inevitable?
Sarah Boesveld: Like I sort of said earlier, the pandemic has shown the cracks that were already there, it just widened them a little bit. Maybe a little bit, a lot a bit in some ways.
And I think certainly for working women, it has been a huge strain because they still face a lot of the same expectations at home. And maybe they’re trying to advance in their careers and they keep facing barrier after barrier doing so. And the at home front situation. Really comes down to childcare.
And I think it’s affecting a lot of men too, don’t get me wrong. But when women who are working and they have small children are asked to work from home, that isn’t necessarily going to work for them unless they actually have some childcare. Or they have a partner who is really not working that much at the time.
I know in our house, we’ve had to basically take shifts. So I would work in the morning until nap time ended, and then pick it up and then work a little in the evening. And it’s just very piecemeal and you don’t feel like your attention is fully there. And certainly if you have to roll back work and you can’t take on the assignments that you want to, or you can’t take on that extra task that’s gonna get you up to the next track in your trajectory, in your career because you have to take care of the kids, then you’re gonna lose pay. You’re gonna lose those opportunities. It’s not going to be good for your career. And so childcare as we’re seeing, because parents are really losing their minds during this pandemic, it’s critical. It’s a critical piece of the economy.
And I know that our federal government has talked about childcare being very important and they have made some investments. They’re just not enough though. And even just the structure of it right now is all up to the provinces to disseminate the money. And even here in Ontario with Premier Doug Ford and I guess Stephen Lecce, the education minister, whoever it was in their cabinet, who said, ‘Oh yeah, by the way, you know, childcare centres are open as of like two days from now’.
So the centres were like, ‘what do you mean?’
Jordan: Me and you exchanged emails then, like, ‘uh, are you sending your kid back? Cause I don’t know.’
Sarah Boesveld: Yeah, well, I mean, and the sad thing too, is that there is a lot of expertise that just does not get listened to. And I think that happens all the time in government. And I think we’re seeing that right now, certainly talking about anti-racist measures that need to be taken seriously by the federal government, by all levels of government.
But how many reports get filed that they just completely ignore? You know, and even just with this talk of an inquiry into the Nova Scotia shooting that killed 22 people in, was it early April? I think mid-April. Canada’s biggest mass killing happened this year. And it took us many minutes into this podcast conversation to get to it. But there will be an inquiry report, potentially years down the road. Will they actually implement any of the changes? Probably not. And we saw that with the Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls inquiry report. That was a year old as of a couple of weeks ago. And you know, what have we seen? Absolutely nothing.
Fatima Syed: I want to add that I don’t think it’s just women who are suffering the brunt of the pandemics and what not. I think it’s temporary foreign workers. I think it’s undocumented workers. I think there’s so many people who have fallen through the gaps because there’s so much happening this year that we haven’t even gotten to them.
And that’s concerning. Cause when you think about essential workers, which is a new phrase 2020 has given us, a lot of them are from precarious status levels of society. They are people who are on temporary permits or on work permits, or early stage immigration processes, and that’s concerning. What happens, what is happening to them and what happens to them after that?
And a lot of them are women who are working in retail or grocery stores, or they’re single women who are driving buses, taking kids to school that we haven’t heard from, and I don’t know how they’re doing, but I hope they’re okay. There’s so many levels of society towards the bottom rung unfortunately, who have been put in a vulnerable position. God knows how they’re doing. And I think about that a lot because they also don’t necessarily go in front of a camera to talk about it. They’ll be the first ones to hunker down and protect their status above all else. And they deserve some thought, I suppose is my rant.
Sarah Boesveld: Absolutely. And I’m concerned not to be so Ontario centric here, Jordan and I apologize, but like Windsor-Essex is our last Ontario community to move into stage two. And then they say, ‘Oh, it’s because of the migrant workers who have COVID-19’. So we want to talk about racism as well. I’m very concerned about racism in that area, given that they’re being highlighted as the people, the reason why the rest of that community can’t reopen. But for sure, I think also in the way that we’ve hailed these essential references heroes, well how are we actually getting them proper supports and pay? We’ve seen Loblaws and companies roll back the pandemic pay for their grocery staff.
We’ve seen nurses who were promised an increase in pay for dealing with COVID patients have to go out and picket in order to get that 1% or something. So I think you’re right, Fatima. Absolutely you’re not going to hear from these people who are too goddamn busy getting the work done.
And also, we’ve been having conversations about the failures of media too, and the way that we’ve not been able to get into the communities, or have journalists of colour come in, who have connections and who really know the stories and can get them to the broader public in a meaningful way. It’s been a huge failure.
Jordan: That was going to be my next question for both of you, actually, my last sort of meaningful question before we just chat about some of the other stories. We all know really excellent reporters across the country, but is the Canadian media as a whole, considering the economic realities of it, is it up to the task of covering 2020 and all the inequalities that these events are putting on display?
Sarah Boesveld: Absolutely not.
Jordan: Why not?
Fatima Syed: We’re not introspective enough. We don’t think longterm and I don’t know why yet. I’ve only been a journalist for three years. And, you know, I’ve seen the same narrative repeat over and over and over again and yet no one seems to learn from it or take any action that is different, or major in a way that will have a significant impact.
Racism in Canadian media isn’t new. The fact that we don’t cover vulnerable populations isn’t new. The fact that we don’t cover our suburb populations, or rural populations isn’t new. Over the weekend a man was killed by police in Mississauga, which is where I’m talking from. And there is no dedicated Peel region reporter at any publication.
The Toronto Star had put up a posting, but that was canceled. And it took them two years to replace their former reporter. Mississauga is the sixth largest city in Canada. And no major publication has a reporter covering it. And no major publication has a reporter at City Hall or familiar with Peel Region Police to cover that story properly.
They don’t have the resources and they don’t have the knowhow or the awareness of how the city functions. And that’s just one example. It’s the same across the country. I don’t see enough stories about Saskatchewan, for example. I don’t see enough stories about Manitoba, for example, and what’s going on there.
I only recently learned about the very burgeoning black population in Western Canada because a Black reporter at CBC tweeted about it. And that was shocking to me. We keep just not strengthening ourselves to reflect Canadian society and to do a better job reporting on the issues that are unfolding, not just South of the border, but right here in our borders.
And that is devastating. And honestly very taxing to think about constantly, especially when you’re a journalist of colour, because it feels like you’re in a loop that just won’t end.
Sarah Boesveld: Well, what does the media love but a cycle all the time, right? Like we’re always going in circles and cycles. And we have a complete inability to look past them, I think.
And also I’ve been reflecting a lot, certainly in the conversations about racism in Canadian media, about the outsized import we put on ego and power. And I think that is across a number of industries. But I think in media, there’s this concentrated masthead here or Star reporters, there. I mean like quote unquote Star, not Toronto Star. People who are really concerned with their stature and their by-lines and so on.
And I think that’s a product of also feeling like we’re in a scarcity space, which we are, they haven’t figured out a proper ad model to actually grow media in a meaningful way. But if we have people sort of clinging to power and not looking to the future and thinking about, what are the meaningful stories and who are the meaningful communities?
Not only in a we got to make money kind of way, but in a we’re a tool of democracy kind of way. And we are that resource for people to really understand themselves better and to understand one another better. That has been a real disappointment, and I think that’s structural and systemic too, but we have a lot of work to do to fix that.
Jordan: What I’m hearing you say is that it’s not enough that Ben Mulroney is stepping down.
Sarah Boesveld: No, he still gets to do all the fun stuff. It’s so not fair. So not fair.
Fatima Syed: Not to be repetitive, but it’s all connected after all. If we don’t have a strong media that covers issues like race or just vulnerable communities or immigrant communities or mental health across communities or policing across communities properly, in a way that incorporates diverse societies, those problems will be exacerbated because no one will be holding them accountable. And if no one’s holding them accountable, then no one can change anything to fix that. It’s all circular and again, the fact that we’ve been in a lockdown and everything is playing out with us having this eagle’s eye view of everything that’s wrong with our society, is only exacerbating all of that.
So yeah, I’m hoping something will give after 2020.
Jordan: This is leading perfectly to my last question. So thank you for that. Because we have to go soon, but what do we as media collectively, people reporting, people telling the stories, have to do better in the second half of this year to make sure that some of the stuff that we’ve just talked about today actually changes?
Sarah Boesveld: I think we have to do a better job of listening, of taking a breath, which I think this time has maybe in some ways helped us do. Not if we’re maybe really, really on edge having to cover absolutely everything. But I think we have to listen, learn from what we’ve been taking in about everything that we’ve noticed, like pull the curtain back on in some ways what the pandemic has done for us.
And also push. I think pushing is the most important thing. And I think that means pushing for more diverse voices in our media. That means pushing editors who say, ‘I don’t think that’s a story’. Say, ‘why do you think that’s not a story?’ Just really look beyond what your maybe typical beat and sources have been, and expand and really hold your management accountable, because we’ve been in a moment where they’ve been forced to listen, hopefully, and they all hope that we’ll stop, and that this will pass. You know, governments do that all the time, media people in charge do that all the time. They wait for the winds to blow. We have to keep pushing.
Fatima Syed: I think it’s about understanding that the world’s a lot bigger than what we include in our publications or our websites.
And it’s being mindful that the people in this world are not of one kind of one thought or one community. Again, I do these roundups and I read about countries around the world and things that people aren’t even talking about, that will stay with me for a very, very long time.
You know, people in Venezuela don’t even have clean water to wash their hands, which blows my mind. And also the same people in Venezuela are putting up red cloths on their balconies or on their doors to signal that they don’t have enough funds for food. That those kinds of stories don’t leave you.
And I think we need to realize that whether it’s our own neighbourhood or our country, or just globally, there’s so many stories out there and there’s so many people out there. And if journalists aren’t doing the job holding or shedding a light on those stories and then holding the powers to account for the troubles that they’re facing, whether it is employment benefits or childcare or healthcare or schooling or clean water, nothing’s going to change right?
Every democracy starts with accountability and who better to hold accountable than a strong, diverse and mindful journalism industry.
Sarah Boesveld: Fatima for EIC!
Jordan: That was really powerful. And a nice note to end on, I think, although maybe slightly depressing. So before I say goodbye, give me your best good news story for 2020, just to keep us living.
Fatima Syed: So my favourite news story of all time in these past six months is an opera house in Barcelona reopened for the first time in several months. And they performed for an audience of 2,292 potted plants. The opera director said that it was in recognition of how nature has crept forward to occupy the spaces humans have seeded, and the plants were then donated to healthcare workers.
And the video is just amazing to watch.
Sarah Boesveld: You should post it in the show notes. I want to see it.
Fatima Syed: It’s on my Twitter.
Jordan: We’ll put it on the Twitter when we launch this episode, Sarah, now you have to tell us a good news story if you have one. It’s okay if you don’t,
Sarah Boesveld: It’s not a specific news story, actually no, it is. The news story about the woman who really wanted to hug her, I think either niece or small person loved one. And so she made like a hug suit, so she could hug her during the pandemic, follow all the rules, keep it safe. And so it was this elaborate plastic doorway thing with arm holes and they got to hug. And I think like the general genre of stories, good news stories that I’ve been fixing my attention on, has really been those sort of like we’re emerging and these like human connections are coming alive again. Like the first hugs. I think there was a viral video in New Brunswick, too, where grandma was like, what? You mean I can hug my granddaughter or grandson? And it happened. And I think that’s the stuff. I think during the pandemic, if you’ve been in a position to really count your blessings and, and focus on the love in your life, that’s a beautiful thing. And we should be talking about that and sharing that a lot more.
Jordan: My favourite story and not all of them are real, are all the memes about like nature is returning. So kind of speaking to Fatima’s, it started with those like, ‘Oh, there’s dolphins in the Venice canal’, which turned out to not actually be true. Although some canals were cleaner. But like now every time anything happens, like a raccoon steals somebody’s Apple and somebody like, ‘nature is returning’. And I’ll take as many of those as I can get.
Fatima Syed: Listen, the lockdown allowed people to record the sounds of the ocean, which I think is pretty remarkable.
Jordan: God-willing, we will still be here another year from now. And we can talk to you guys again, but we’ll talk to both of you before then. Sarah and Fatima, thank you so much and stay safe and keep doing what you do.
Sarah Boesveld: Love this podcast. Happy anniversary.
Fatima Syed: Thanks, Jordan.
Jordan: Sarah Boesveld and Fatima Syed, both amazing reporters, both among our favorite people to talk to. And I am sure you’ll be hearing from both of them very soon. That was The Big Story. Our second anniversary episode, it’s still hard to believe we’ve made it this far.
And if you’ve been listening since the beginning from all of us, sincerely a huge, thank you. This show would be nothing without you guys listening and rating and reviewing and all that stuff I tell you to do, but also writing to us suggesting topics that we should cover, suggesting experts that we should talk to.
We love that, it makes us feel like you guys are invested in the show. So please don’t stop. And if you want to find us at any time, we’re always on Twitter @thebigstoryfpn. And you can always send us an email. Literally the people who work directly on this show, me and Claire and Stef and Ryan and Annalise, we read all those emails every day, send them to us at firstname.lastname@example.org. And of course, keep rating and reviewing, just drop by in the reviews and say happy birthday. We appreciate you. We love you. Stay safe. There’s only half of this year left to go. Thanks for listening.
I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings. We’ll talk tomorrow.
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