Jordan
It’s got to be the toughest job in Canadian politics right now.
News Clip
Former Supreme Court Justice Morris Fish’s scathing review of the military justice system comes in the midst of a sexual misconduct firestorm for the forces.
Jordan
For much of the past year, barely a month has gone by without a new sexual harassment or sexual assault scandal in the Canadian armed Forces. And all too often, those scandals have involved some of the military’s top ranked officials. This has been a problem in the Canadian military for too long, of course, as many reporters have discovered. And as we’ve discussed on this show. Attempts at reform have repeatedly failed. Efforts to shift the culture have barely budged it. And Meanwhile, recruitment has fallen dramatically. So something needed to change. Why not the Minister?
Anita Anand swearing in Clip
…that I will truly and faithfully and to the best of my skill and knowledge, execute the powers and trust reposed in me as Minister of National Defense. So help me God.
Jordan
That was Anita Anand, Canada’s new Minister of national defense. You may recognize her from her previous role in procuring millions of COVID-19 vaccines that have saved tens of thousands of Canadian lives. So naturally, she gets the toughest task in government, and she swears she’s ready for it.
Anita Anand Clip
I am thorough, I am determined. I am dogged, and I am results oriented, and I will be dedicating all of my energies towards this task and this position.
Jordan
Last week, the Minister made her first move towards change in the military. But advocates are skeptical that any one move alone will be enough. So how far down, or, more importantly, how far up does the culture problem in Canada’s military go? Is Minister Anand the woman to fix it, or at least to make real progress? And what exactly would that progress look like?
I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings, this is the Big Story. Julie Lalonde is an educator, an advocate. She works with organizations, including in the past, the Canadian military, to help them create a positive culture. She is also the award winning author of Resilience Is Futile: The Life and Death of Julie S. Lalonde . Hey, Julie.
Julie
Hello. Thanks for having me.
Jordan
You’re very welcome. I’m so glad that we could talk to you today because we have some news to discuss. But we also have been wanting to speak to you for a while anyway about the culture in Canada’s military. And I thought maybe you could start by taking us back to the first time that you worked with the Canadian Armed Forces because you began by giving an anti harassment session, right?
Julie
I did. So, in October of 2014, I was invited by the Royal Military College in Kingston to train all of their students, but they call them officer cadets. So train all of their officer cadets on bystander intervention, and what to do if someone sends you someone else’s nudes, what do you do if you’re at a bar and you see a woman totally wasted being dragged out of the bar by someone. So it was really a bystander intervention training, and it was an incredibly hostile environment. I showed up and I was informed right away that the cadets were mad because they thought I was the reason they had to work on a weekend. The microphone didn’t work. They told me to just yell at them for 8 hours and it was very clear that structurally, they weren’t taking it seriously. But then the content was offensive to them. The definition of consent was funny to them. The idea that people drink too much and asked to be raped was accepted by many of the people in the room. It was an incredibly hostile experience and I was cat called at one point, I was accused of being a man hater. It was just really awful.
But when I filed a complaint with RMC, they didn’t believe me. And so they actually investigated me for five months and then eventually concluded that I had in fact been harassed. And then they wanted the story to be buried. And then I came forward about my experience after the Deschamps report, which came out in the spring of 2015, which found that the Canadian Armed Forces has a huge problem with what they referred to as a sexualized culture. And one officer cadet at RMC was quoted as saying that if she reported every incident of sexual harassment, then she would do nothing but sit in that office because it happens so frequently. And so that really kind of launched me into this conversation of having to talk about sexual violence in the military.
Jordan
That experience you described was more than seven years ago, in the intervening time, as we’ve had the ‘me too’ movement and many public discussions about this type of behaviour, how much has the military culture changed?
Julie
My sense of how folks feel within the CAF is mixed. My sense is that there has been some changes in the fact that there are actually policies and there is a strong mandate to report any and all incidents. But morale is at its lowest. I have folks within the military who keep tabs with me, are constantly updating me on how things are going on the inside because I am a civilian, and many of them are 20, 30 years in the service and say they’ve never seen morale as low as it is right now. And I think that is an important part of this conversation because I think it shows that they didn’t address it from a place of progress and change. And yes, things are going to be uncomfortable, but this is us moving in the 21st century because it was framed as reactionary as very crisis based, ‘this is a PR nightmare for us’, it just created more tension in the space rather than actually dismantling the problems.
Jordan
We’re going to talk in a few minutes about the new Minister of national defence and what she might be doing to tackle this culture. But first, maybe just speaking of the past six, seven years or so, why has it been so intractable? Because we’ve done episodes of this podcast before about this, and it’s not like the examples that we’ve seen over the past year are something that’s crazy new. It seems like this lesson has been out there to be learned for quite some time.
Julie
Honestly, I think part of the problem is that the arena of addressing sexual violence, for example, is something that Progressives do that lefties do and lefties and Progressives are pretty anti military for many valid reasons. And so there hasn’t really been a strong push from social justice organizations or social justice minded people on this topic because we want to just say, well, we shouldn’t have a military in the first place. And so that I think is one of the huge problems is that you need outside pressure to change any institution, not just the military. But when you’re talking about something as contentious as the Canadian Armed Forces, a lot of Progressives will not touch that with a ten foot pole. And I get it. I get death threats from military members, and I get dragged by Progressives who think I shouldn’t be working with the military at all because it’s an inherently broken, oppressive system. And we can’t seem to hold both those truths at once. And I think that’s what’s led to the slow progress on this issue.
Jordan
If you can briefly take us through and you don’t have to touch on everyone or go crazy in depth, that’s not really what we’re here for. But if you could maybe take us through the past six months or a year of military sex, harassment, sex assault scandals because it really does feel, and this is why we’re talking about Minister Anand, it does feel like it’s coming to a head.
Julie
Yeah. I mean, as someone who cared about this issue for a long time and who’s worked with other people who do as well, I have a lot of cynicism about whether or not this is a tipping point, because we’ve seen in the early 90s, Maclean’s did an expose on that. But I do think that the culture is at a place where people like everyday Canadians who weren’t paying attention to the military previously are like, what the hell is going on over there? Because every acting chief of the defense staff seems to get the boot, the guy in charge of the COVID vaccine roll out, he got the boot.
So I think what’s changed right now is that people are asking questions about why is it that every time you promote someone into a leadership position, it comes out that this person was awful. And I think that is what has changed is that we’re seeing high level, it started with former CDS Jonathan Vance, literally the highest ranking military member in the country. It comes out that he who was the strongest voice on addressing sexual misconduct in the military, was, in fact, engaging in that behaviour in the first place. And I think it’s that leadership and the amount of high ranking military officials who are under investigation, who have been removed from their posts. I think that is what’s changed over the last six months. And I think that’s what’s called for a change in the Minister for example. We need a new Minister, we need a new CDS. We need new leadership.
Problem is, the military, by definition, promotes from within. And so you’re only going to continue to promote people who were able to climb the ranks because they subscribed to the culture, because they were adhering to the status quo, and that’s how they were able to get promoted in the first place. So it’s going to continue being a revolving door for quite some time. And I think that’s what’s making it seem like it’s in the news all the time.
Jordan
One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about this is because in your work as well as offering sort of diagnostics, I’ve often seen you offer blueprints towards a better way to do things. And as we both mentioned, we have a new Minister of National Defense, Anita Anand. If she called you to ask for help with this problem, where would you tell her to start?
Julie
Well, there’s the criminal justice response. So there’s the ‘what do we do after an assault has happened?’ piece, that needs to be addressed. There’s also the prevention piece. So what kind of training are people getting in the military? What kind of conversations are happening with them? Are you prioritizing that training, or is it 2 hours on a Friday after twelve weeks of basic training? And then also just recruitment. One of the things that I find so frustrating about this conversation is it feels like such a missed opportunity for the Canadian Armed Forces. My father was a military member. I come from generations of folks who were in the military. And when my dad joined, it was very much this kind of post war, ‘rah-rah-rah’, you’re going to dig trenches, you’re going to go overseas, you’re going to be in the mud. And that’s not what the military looks like today.
The military has changed. It’s a lot of intelligence collection. It’s a lot of diplomacy. And so you actually want to recruit people that have those skills. But there’s this image that we want to recruit brute force because you’re going to go crawl in a trench. And I just feel like the Canadian Armed Forces could have used these conversations about sexual violence and the changing face of the military to just rebrand overall and say, we are looking for smart people with people skills. And I think that is intrinsically linked to addressing the culture. But instead, every commercial you see for joining the forces is very much dropping out of helicopters. So you’re promoting the idea that that’s who you’re looking for. And then you’re shocked that the place is overrun with Alpha males. It’s like, well, that’s what you were looking for!
Jordan
in terms of what could be done, maybe, first, let’s talk about what is being done right now. What did Minister Anand announce last week?
Julie
So the new Minister announced that she is accepting Justice Arbour’s recommendation that sexual assault, what they refer to as sexual misconduct goes back to the civilian system. Goes back is the important part, because that’s not part of the announcement, but that context is really important for people to know. Sexual assault was the jurisdiction of the civilian system until the late 90s, when the horrific, what was called the Somalia affair, happened. And there was a massive crisis around addressing horrific racism in the military. And so there was an omnibus bill that was put forward, and because it was so controversial, no one dared to challenge it. And what was slipped in to the omnibus bill was that sexual assault would go back to being the jurisdiction of the Canadian Armed Forces.
So we’re going back to a model, and I think that’s really important for folks to understand because it didn’t work the other way either. And that’s my frustration is that I work in the civilian system. We have some of the most egregiously low levels of conviction for sexual assault in Canada. And so the idea that going to the civilian system is, ‘alright, solved that problem’, is really naive.
Jordan
If we wanted to do something similar to that in as much as it’s a move that can be made with one stroke, what options are available to Canada’s government if they really had decided that enough was enough and this isn’t working?
Julie
We need oversight. That’s what military members, survivors have been calling for is oversight. Who is holding the military accountable? Currently, it’s the military holding the military accountable. And we’ve seen with the RCMP that just doesn’t work. So we need actual oversight where there is accountability. There are clear steps. Okay, you’re committing to doing this? This is going to be the follow up. If you don’t, we’re going to pull funding or we’re going to do various things. There should be consequences to not following through on the plan. So I do think that this step around accepting Justice Arbour’s recommendations is a great first step. I mean, we can’t forget in 2015, the government and the military rejected the suggestions that were made for how to change things. So that’s a sign of progress that we have a military and the government on the same page saying, yes, we need to make changes to how we legally address sexual assault in the military.
But beyond that, who’s going to hold their feet to the fire, who’s going to make sure they’re actually getting things done, especially when you’re dealing with an institution like the Canadian armed forces, which is, by definition, incredibly insular? They do not like outsiders. They don’t think anyone on the outside has anything of value to contribute. And so it ends up being, we’re just kind of standing back and hoping they are doing the right thing.
Jordan
So far, we’ve kind of talked about what can be done from a bird’s eye view, or from a very high level, what could be done on the ground to make a difference in the overall experience of the Canadian Armed Forces? I mean, I know you do a ton of bystander intervention. What does that look like applied to an organization as a whole?
Julie
What’s fascinating to me about bystander intervention in the military is nobody should get it more than they do. You win as a team, you lose as a team. And so it’s fascinating to me that there’s been so much resistance to that conversation because it’s actually very much in line with the ethos of the military, which is we are one unit, and we are only as strong as our weakest link and all of those cliches. So they should absolutely be implementing this across the board, not just for sexual violence, but the other piece is this is also intrinsically linked to the high levels of racism within the military.
It’s not a surprise that we have out and proud Nazi Proud Boys who are in the Canadian armed forces, because again, that culture has created that. So if there was widespread from the jump the second you are recruited, training on these are your responsibilities when you wear this uniform. And that includes calling people out, even if they are your brother, even if they are in the chain of command, really normalizing that I think would go a long way. But unfortunately, they don’t look at it from that lens.
And then Secondly, I would say again, doing that overhaul even down to the uniform. The uniform is we all look the same, but actually, it’s that we all look masculine. So there’s still women who are having to fight to get funding so that they can get equipment that actually fits their bodies, which then the unit says ‘we had to spend all this money to get Julie a helmet, so now we can’t go on a course’, which then builds resentment and builds the idea that you are here because we allow you to be here. These seem like very small things, but they’re absolutely contributing to the culture that says you’re a woman, just be grateful we’re letting you be here and don’t ask for more.
Jordan
I know you’ve mentioned that you’re cynical about this, but do you get the sense that there actually could be a change in the military culture if the will was there or is it just endemic at this point?
Julie
I think the will is the piece that’s missing, absolutely. And the nature of this file is that it’s also hyper partisan. And so, for example, I completely disagree with the fact that Trudeau even called for another review, and that’s no disrespect to justice Arbour, absolutely not, or her expertise. But it was unnecessary. It was an unnecessary process. But because the previous review was done under the Harper government, well, we can’t touch that one because ours will be better. And so that means we’re going to be making progress, possibly, but only for four years. And then it stops and we’re starting over from scratch, or we’re abandoning it completely.
That’s what’s so frustrating to me is that in my relatively short lifetime, we have seen multiple reviews, multiple recommendations, multiple reports. I can’t even tell you how many roundtables I’ve sat on just in the past seven years, and we’re just going in circles because we’re waiting for someone to just make a decision. And then we’re hoping that decision sticks long enough through an election. And that is a problem. This shouldn’t be a partisan issue. This should just be an issue.
Jordan
I also want to ask you while I have you here, and just because it’s something I’ve thought a lot about this week, is if you see any similarities in terms of the culture in the Canadian armed forces and the culture of professional sports, I’m thinking, obviously, of hockey here, in particular, because of the way the National Hockey League and the Chicago Blackhawks handled a situation of sexual abuse allegations. I mean, the similarities just popped into my head, and I wonder if you see similarities in the culture, if not the behaviour.
Julie
Oh, absolutely. And I think we just need to name the elephant in the room. Like, what did those two institutions have in common? It’s a lot of men. It’s a lot of white men. It’s a lot of white men where your physical prowess is the priority. It’s two organizations that are very concerned with image with reputation. Those things absolutely create a culture in which sexual violence is absolutely going to happen. In the case of the world of sport, for example, I mean, I’m horrified and devastated, but unsurprised, because, again, similar to the military, the world of sports, the world of team sports in particular, I mean, I grew up in the world of sports, you win as a team, you lose as a team, you’re only as strong as your weakest link. These are principles that should apply that should extend to the world of bystander intervention, but they don’t.
Instead, they turn to, you saw nothing, you heard nothing, because if you call me out, I can ruin your life, too. And that’s the kind of no snitch culture that you’re seeing in both the military and the world of sport. Things like gang rape happen extensively in the world of sport. And there’s lots of research to show that it’s often almost like an initiation or a way for men to bond over the objectification of a young woman. These are all things that need to be talked about beyond what did the Blackhawks know, and what did they do about it? But this didn’t occur in a vacuum, and again, I come from the world of sport. That’s my jam. It’s not a slight against the world of sport at all, but we got to be real that this is endemic.
Jordan
What will you be watching for? And here I speak mostly about the military, but also about professional sports, and hockey in particular, over the coming weeks and months to see if we’ve reached a turning point or not? I guess what I’m trying to get a sense of what are the signals that this time is going to be different because again, in sports and the military, we’ve been down this road before.
Julie
If we’re even still talking about it. What we’ve seen with the world of #MeToo, is that the institutional change came because everyday people wouldn’t shut up about it and fans wouldn’t shut up about it. Fans of films, fans of sport. And that’s why I want to see hockey fans rising up and calling this stuff out and threatening not to come to games and threatening not to buy merch. That’s what we need to see. We need to see hardcore pressure put on these people. Similarly, with the military, the military has acknowledged in the last few weeks that they are short almost 10,000 members that they’re having a heck of a time recruiting. And so I want to know what that recruitment looks like.
And I want to see if they’re actually going to change their messaging, if they’re actually going to name some of these problems, or if they’re going to just hope that the focus will shift somewhere else. People have short attention spans. We’re in the middle of a pandemic, so hopefully this thing just goes away. And so I want to see in six months, are they even still talking about it, or is it only coming up when prompted? That seems minor, but is actually a real sign of whether they’re working at it truly or they’re just dancing for the camera.
Jordan
All right. You heard it. If you’re a sports fan or give a crap about the military, don’t shut up. Thanks so much, Julie, for your wisdom today.
Julie
Thanks for having me.
Jordan
Julie Lalonde, an advocate, an educator. You can read her memoir Resilience is Futile by ordering it anywhere you get your books or even better, by patronizing a local bookstore. That was The Big Story, your favourite local podcast, if ‘local’ refers to all of Canada. You can find more Canadian stories at thebigstorypodcast.ca. You can talk to us, actual Canadians who make the show, on Twitter at @TheBigStoryFPN, and you can email us the bigstorypodcast@rci.rogers.com [click here!].
You can also find this podcast and like this podcast and rate it and review it and subscribe to it and follow it and whatever else they tell you to do in whatever podcast platform you choose at any time anywhere. Unless you don’t use data on your phone, in which case load up on episodes before you leave the house.
Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings, we’ll talk tomorrow.
Back to top of page