What is Bill C-11 and what will it do?

Clip You’re listening to a frequency podcast network production in association with City News.

Jordan Heath-Rawlings It’s bill C-11, and it has a pretty innocuous official description. It’s called an act to the broadcasting act and to make related and consequential amendments to other acts. Sounds like minor changes, right? A few tweaks to a few already existing acts. What’s the big deal? Well, to put it bluntly, bill C-11 is intended to expand Canada’s signature can-con requirements that you are likely familiar with from television and radio into the world of online media. And that impacts tens of thousands of Canadians who make their living in that space, but also every Canadian who spends time aimlessly hanging out on TikTok or on YouTube or, I don’t know, looking for a new podcast to listen to. In order to understand why this bill is so important and controversial, first we need to understand what’s actually in it, how it will impact creators, and how it could change the kind of content Canadians find when they go looking for entertainment online. Because as you might imagine, it’s complicated. I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings. This is The Big Story. Vass Bednar is the executive director of the Masters of Public Policy and Digital society program at McMaster University and also the author of a newsletter called REGGS to Riches.

Vass Bednar hey there.

Jordan I’m going to start by taking off my digital media journalist whatever hat here because I know this impacts me sort of, and I don’t want this explained to me like I might understand it because I really don’t, really. Okay, so let’s start at the very beginning. What is bill c-11 and what’s the problem this bill is intended to solve? What is the problem this bill is intended to solve?

Vass Bednar Okay, so I think that the goal of c-11 is to ensure or introduce kind of better competition for digital creators. So it focuses on three things online, discoverability, promotion, and showcasing. So fundamentally in terms of the problem that it’s trying to solve. This piece of legislation is basically saying, okay, in Canada, we have particular expectations on broadcasters, radio, television, in terms of the proportion of Canadian content that they showcase, but also funds that they contribute to support the production and creation of Canadian content. Now, we’re trying to apply this legislation or expand this legislation to include digital streaming, right, digital media, impose or kind of bring them under that umbrella in terms of some of those policy obligations that are related to Canadian content. The goal is to require online streaming giants like the ones we’re very familiar with, YouTube, TikTok, to contribute to the creation and availability of Canadian content in the way that we do right now with music, film, and television. So to wrap up, I think, the angle or the vibe, the intention is around protecting what we call Canadian culture, delivering more choice to Canadians, and also making sure we’re being mindful of the needs of minority language communities, but it’s definitely taken on a life of its own. I think it’s become our conversations about it have become really muddled and polarized and that’s probably why it’s a nice opportunity to try to just revisit it or break it down a little bit.

Jordan Yeah, and that’s the thing that I’m looking forward to because my understanding of it, as I said, is extremely limited, and it was limited to that, to bringing the can-con requirements into the digital era. And from what I gather, it’s one thing to talk about, yes, YouTube and Netflix or whomever are going to have to support Canadian content, and it is a whole other thing to try to parse out what that means in practice. So maybe first, what’s the status of this bill? Right now? It’s past the House and in the Senate and there’s hearings. Is that what’s going on?

Vass Bednar Yeah, you got it. The bills being before the Senate for something like close to six months at the time that we’re recording, there’s been something close to 42 hours of hearings before the Heritage Standing Committee. But recently the Senate was going through a clause by clause review of the act. So I think one really important thing to remember on anything related to public policy of any kind, not just digital policy, is we don’t write public policy in stone anymore, and thank goodness for that. But we sometimes treat the process as if we do, right?

Jordan If this goes forward with aspects that we haven’t perfectly ironed out or there’s still a wrinkle, we can still address that. And I do want us to remember that because already we’re seeing some great discussion around whether the expectations outlined in this act would extend to what’s referred to as user generated content. And the Heritage Minister has clarified that the online streaming act wouldn’t cover that. And that is good to remember because it was a big sticking point from earlier conversations. What do we know about why or maybe why not this bill is necessary? Is there right now a problem with a lack of Canadian content in digital media up here?

Vass Bednar I would frame it as we occasionally perceive or allow. We allow ourselves to be a little bit deluded that the Internet is a totally unregulated space, right? That creators who are economically successful are the beneficiaries of a digital meritocracy that doesn’t totally exist in the sense that these spaces are regulated. They are regulated by the private actors that control the distribution platforms. They are algorithmically controlled as much as we can shape our feeds or signal our interests on TikTok, etc. And there’s lots of interesting literature on that kind of algorithmic manipulation. We are not in the driver’s seat. So I think fundamentally that there’s a role for the state to make these marketplaces more fair or more aligned with our Canadian cultural goals. It’s been really fascinating to hear from what we call creators, right, people who are creating content online and can earn a living or are very successful. This is fascinating. This is a totally new economy, but it’s also a winner take all economy. And while we call these people influencers, I think in a lot of ways they are the influenced. Right? They are confined and constrained by those algorithmic incentives that dictate what successful content might look like, right. To kind of anchor on those distribution dates. So I hope I’m not being too abstract. Actually, you bring me into check. You do a good job on that. But it’s my perspective. Yeah. My understanding is, from what you just said, that basically means that right now, canadian creators, or any creators around the world for that matter, kind of have to follow what’s popular or risk getting ignored by the algorithms that actually just surface the content that’s doing well. And what we’re trying to do is make a space in there for stuff that’s uniquely Canadian instead of another version of the American trend that a Canadian creator might be jumping on. Because that’s the way to get seen. Right. And it doesn’t force consumption, right. Being seen, the discoverability. So if we try to make a connection let me see if I can do this to our analog world. It’s kind of like at HMV when there was a CD in the store, you could probably find it, right? R-I-P HMV. The discoverability of that CD in the online marketplace of streaming or kind of music can be a lot more difficult, right? We know that algorithms surface certain types of music, blah, blah, blah. So that’s what it’s kind of about.

Jordan It’s kind of can we bring this digital context more in line with these longstanding policy goals and just do a little bit better again to improve the likelihood of consumption of Canadian content and also support creators a little bit more from the state side?

Vass Bednar So I think Canadian culture and content creators do benefit from this, but I think for platforms that have new and at times murky expectations placed on them, however convoluted, as we work towards clarifying them, you could argue that they lose out because they are subject to manipulations or expectations that change how their business works. And who wants that? If you’re a private actor, not a lot of people want that. How would these companies and here, let’s just talk about the big streaming, big digital media giants. How do these companies feel about it and how would they have to do it? Does YouTube need to create a Canadian section? Do they need a uniquely Canadian algorithm? And I imagine that they don’t like that. Would I be wrong? Well, you’re not wrong that generally the platforms have come out against this piece of legislation. There’s massive advertising campaigns and investments opposing this legislation. And I think we also have to take that opposition with a grain of salt and understand what is being articulated from a private business interest and where do we find and center and hang on to the public interest and create our interest as we go forward here? We know again, I mentioned that the concerns on user generated content falling under these requirements seem to be starting to be addressed right now in thinking about social media as a form of broadcasting which may not be, you know, may feel like a square peg in a round hole. We are seeing Canadian legislators trying to work with the tools that are already familiar to us and that we already have, right? And then bring in new regimes there in terms of can we actually achieve the intended policy goals? That’s going to also be that’s a matter for the policy evaluation but also platforms to be and stay in dialogue with the regulator, which is the CRTC which I haven’t brought up yet. Apology again, it doesn’t change how creators operate but you’re right, there are, I guess we could say, algorithmic implications for Discoverability and what might show up in a feed based on how we define Canadian content as we move into a discussion about the difference between independent creators and Canadian media companies and who benefits.

Jordan I have a very practical question. Would this bill help me and our podcast here be seen more on a platform like Spotify, which I will tell you from experience, very rarely features Canadian podcasts anywhere. You are far, far more likely to see the New York Times, the Daily or Vox’s today explained than you are the Big Story or say, another Canadian Daily News podcast like Front Burner. Is that ultimately what we’re talking about here? That Canadian users of an American or worldwide platform like Spotify would be fed more content like us instead of our American counterparts? Or should I be asking the Senate this question?

Vass Bednar It’s a great question for the Senate to look. I’ve been doing a bit of a vast weekend boot camp on finally getting into the weeds of C Eleven. The focus is in that Canadian context, having a better parallel between the expectations placed on legacy broadcast media outlets and online platforms. So if a viewer or a potential listener is geo-locatable as being in Canada and then they’re searching for those podcasts, in theory, yes, the Discoverability of the Big Story podcast will be improved. The promotion might slightly change, how it showcase might change, doesn’t mean that you’re going to get any more listeners. Right? There’s not a guarantee of the listenership.

Jordan That’s what I want. I want the government to make everyone listen to my podcast.

Vass Bednar OK, that would be that bill is currently not before the Senate. But I like how you’re trying to make it more concrete because I think it’s really important, and this can get lost in so many policy conversations, but the articulation of what looks and feels different once this becomes law, I think has been overall kind of poorly done or just hasn’t been as noisy as the opposition. This is being framed as a censorship bill. This has been the invective is. I’m sure more people have heard that this opens the door to things like state controlled media than they have maybe some of the other deeper dynamics of C Eleven. And that’s just a natural function of the hairiness of digital debate. And this is my last question about the algorithms and what happens online before we move on to the funding.

Jordan Can anybody really say what will happen when this passes? And I don’t mean that like, you know, this bill is hard to read and there’s a lot of stuff in there. I just mean that when you apply any kind of new algorithm or process to massive amount of online content like that’s, in my experience anyway, one of the most unpredictable things that can happen on the internet, right? Who knows what happens when you make this and turn it loose, right?

Vass Bednar It is a little bit unpredictable. There’s no guarantees. But again, it’s an area where Canada is leading in a really interesting way. So typically we are a follower, right? We’re a policy taker. We’re not really a policymaker and rather than be architects, we’re often importers. But because we have this unique approach from heritage and it’s fascinating when you zoom out and think that Canadian heritage is so active in potential interventions or modifications to our digital economy, I do think that’s really interesting. So no, there are no guarantees. I will not pretend to you that I can guarantee anything or that I see anything guaranteed in this bill. But I personally do think it’s worth moving forward on, worth experimenting with, worth seeing if it’s possible to get closer to those policy goals and if we can improve again those goals of discoverability, etc. I was really struck, I read I read this really cool book about YouTube earlier this year. If I could just tell you about it for a second. It’s called like Comment subscribe, but it’s a history of YouTube. And one of the three lines is the relationship between the company and creators and how it was at times murky opaque, but how creators were forced to kind of learn or guess or anticipate those algorithmic changes. Right? How long should a video be? What hashtags should accompany your video? And I think for me it was a good reminder that, again, the space does have a form of regulation attached to it that we maybe don’t appreciate how it affects what we see and also the structure of what we see.

Jordan You mentioned Spotify. I mean, there’s some research showing how the incentives on the platform of Spotify, the incentive is how long your song has to be played to count as a play.

Vass Bednar Songs are a whole lot shorter now on average. So these platforms are literally also restructuring the cultural content that we consume. Forget about controlling and throttling what we see or don’t see and having the ability to pick winners or losers, whether I’m not saying they’re handpicked. But I’m saying again, the structure of the content is often largely what is dictating its success, of course, people sharing and interacting with it. But to share and interact with something, you’ve got to see it in the first place. That’s a really good point, and it brings me to the money for creators. And this is something, first of all, I will state, as I often do when you and I talk, that for anybody who doesn’t know, the Big Story Podcast and Frequency Podcast Network are owned by Roger Sports and Media, which makes us potentially I actually don’t know the answer to this, and maybe you can tell me. One of the companies or creators who would benefit from this can con funding that the government is including in this bill. I will ask you, though, the criticism that I have heard about it is that that money will go to large Canadian media companies rather than the army of independent Canadian creators who work on YouTube or TikTok or social media in many ways because that’s almost impossible to distribute to, and that’s what makes it unfair.

Jordan What do you think of that criticism?

Vass Bednar All criticism can be constructive, right? We need to register these concerns. We need to, if and as we move forward with this legislation, really think hard about when and how we are evaluating its success, how we are being transparent about that, and where we’re creating the wiggle room to kind of refresh the legislative environment and tweak it and make it even better. We’re at a four out of ten right now for content creators online. I’d like to get to a seven, and then I want us to get to a ten. I’m being a little bit silly with my analogies, but I do think this gets us a whole lot closer to a seven. There is separate funding, separate, complementary funding in budget 2020 to support creators. But yes, distributing to independent creators in that way could be challenging. However, at the same time, improving their Discoverability could lead to them having better financial success in that advertising economy that governs these platforms. So I think this bill can also help us think about what does it mean to have and support a creator economy and not leave that totally up to this digital marketplace that’s actually not a free for all.

Jordan Can we give creators a better shot at success online? I’m supportive of that. Is this a case of it’s better to do something half a loaf is better than none, than try to figure out how to make this perfect because in this world, we might never get there?

Vass Bednar Yes, you said it a little bit better than me. I worry sometimes that our penchant for perfection, especially academically, of which, you know me, I’m kind of academic adjacent, can perversely work against us in achieving policy change. Policy progress. Right. So I see this bill as a form of policy progress. I think it’s certainly innovative. It’s uniquely Canadian in terms of our intervention in the digital economy. The world can learn quite a bit from what Canada accomplishes here, and we need to learn what we can actually accomplish. I do think it’s worthwhile I think it’s muddled. I think there are some ambiguities, I understand, people’s concerns that is the CRTC going to have too much power or new power that we don’t fully or properly understand? Again, we legislators will remain in the driver’s seat. This is ultimately our legislation, our country, and we can and should continue to improve it. But I think it would be a mess to not proceed with this. I’ll call it an experiment. I hope that’s not too provocative. But the most provocative thing I said, I’m not being my usual self. It’s an experiment. Right? It’s an experiment. And I think it’s worthwhile. I think it’s super unique. It’s super unique that Tik-talkers and Vloggers and artists on Spotify are now receiving legislative attention, especially if you think back to just a few years ago and how sort of out of step government felt with our digital realities. And we’re talking about compensation. Last year, Canadian musicians got an average of $67 in streaming royalties. It’s really hard to earn money as a creative because of the marketplace control of these companies.

Vass Bednar So shout out to Cory Dr and Rebecca Gibbon. They have a great new book called Choke Point Capitalism, which is all about that. But $67, that gets you about six months of ad free.

Jordan Spotify should. And can we be doing a little bit better? How do we talk about the revenue split between creators and platforms?

Vass Bednar Those are bigger conversations, but they’re certainly related to this bill. And again, I think this bill is, you know me. I’m kind of, I’ll say, interested in competition issues, but I think this is about better competition for creators online and protecting Canadian culture. Last question fast. Do we know how long these hearings will last for and or what’s likely to happen when they’re done? This bill is probably going to pass, right? I mean, it seems likely that it will pass with some amendments. It’s got some great sustained attention on it. The Senate got a really strong and thoughtful Senate in Canada. Second thought. So I do think it will pass. And are we going to get it perfectly right out the door? Probably not. We’re going to need to keep negotiating and dialoguing with these very powerful digital companies. We’re going to need to learn from creators. We’re going to need to learn about earnings and keep having those conversations about what is the appropriate role for the state in these digital marketplaces. These are not unregulated spaces. They’re unregulated from a government perspective, but they are very carefully moderated and regulated by the platforms themselves, so I do really think that’s important to keep in mind.

Jordan Vass, thank you so much for this. I really feel like I have more insight into this bill now.

Vass Bednar Thanks for having me. Great to chat.

Jordan Vass Bednar, the author of Reggs To Riches, which you can find at REGGS. Two riches. Re g s number two riches.com. That was the Big Story, believe me, before this bill ever becomes law. If you are looking for a new podcast to listen to, I personally have plenty of recommendations for you. Yes, you can first start with Frequency podcastnetwork.com. But also I love to issue podcast recommendations on Twitter where you can find me @thegamesheet once again for as long as that platform exists. There are plenty of ways to find good Canadian podcasts. There are hundreds of great Canadian independent podcasts out there. You just got to go looking for them before the government does it for you. You can find us at thebigstorypodcast CA. You can talk to us anytime on Twitter at the bigstoryFPN. You can email us hello at the bigstory podcast. Dot CA and of course, call us any time. Leave a Voicemail 416-935-5935 you can find The Big Story in every podcast player and of course, in your smart speaker, ask it to play The Big Story podcast. Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings. Have a great weekend. We’ll talk Monday.