CLIP
You are listening to a Frequency Podcast network production in association with City News.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
If you pay any attention at all to how Canadian government functions, you know by now that our institutions can be secretive. There is not a lot of access in this country to information to officials or even access to the places themselves that goes double for institutions like prisons. It’s really rare to get even a look inside them. So when it happens, it is often full of surprises like this look at a women’s prison in Kitchener, Ontario.
CLIP
I didn’t expect the inmates to have this level of freedom, even in the medium security area where you see them, you know, wearing the clothes that they choose, walking around, they’re making whatever meals they choose cuz they’re in charge of their groceries and what they’re about to eat.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Now if you do find it surprising that the women in this prison have this level of freedom, well, there is one more thing you will find inside.
CLIP
Implemented formally in 2001. The Mother Child Program allows eligible moms to raise their children up to the age of five, as long as they can afford the costs of feeding and caring for their child. Across Canada, about 150 women have participated.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Today, we are going to take a thorough look behind the doors of women’s prisons in Canada and take a closer look at a rare program that allows young children to be raised inside of them. How does that program work? Who gets to use it and why? And who determines if it is better for a child to be with their mother on the inside or free, but without her in the world.
I am Jordan Heath Rawlings. This is The Big Story. Cristina Howorun is a reporter with City News. She is also the host and writer of a new documentary called Veracity: Prison Moms, which aired last night across Canada, in which you can find right now on demand at Citynews.ca. Hello, Cristina.
Cristina Howorun
Hi Jordan.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Thanks for finding time for us.
Cristina Howorun
Thank you for having me on.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Of course. This is a really interesting documentary. It’s a really interesting project and I like to start these things, by getting you to talk about the people you spent some time with. So maybe first just tell me about, a woman named Danielle Ulet. Who is she? Where is she? How did she end up there?
Cristina Howorun
Danielle Ulet is actually the very first inmate that I met for this project. She’s just around 30 years old, she had been suffering from addiction for quite some time, and yet had these moments of sobriety where she wasn’t living in a very chaotic life. And during that time, she had a beautiful boy named Charlie. Now her and her partner broke up. She found herself spiraling and ended up getting back into her addiction fairly heavily and she ended up being convicted of attempted armed robberies. So she wasn’t successful. But she did attempt to, and she likes to say regain money that was stolen from her mother, but yes, she was convicted of attempted armed robbery and actually arresting her involved, like SWAT like activity. She refused to leave the house. The entire home that she was living in was surrounded by police. It took her several hours to get outta the home, and when she did, she did so wearing a thong and a tank top. So this, this is how far into her addiction she was. She pled guilty and she was sentenced to just over two years. And during her time at the Edmonton Institution for Women. She had taken so many different programs, lots of different courses, all with the goal of eventually being able to raise her son Charlie, with her in prison. At the time, he was being bounced around from one grandma to another to his father’s home, little stints in foster care. And then his father passed away. He actually passed of a drug overdose. And that’s when she said, okay, now, now it’s my turn. Like let me do this. And she had him with her in Edmonton’s Institution for about six months, and that was probably the most stability that beautiful boy has ever experienced. And it’s, it’s sad to say this, but living in a prison for six months was the most stable his life had ever been.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
We’re gonna talk about the program that allowed this to happen and how it works, but first, you spent a lot of time with Danielle. Given the story, that you just told me about her conviction and her arrest, what were you expecting when you met her? What did you get?
Cristina Howorun
So, Jordan, I went to Edmonton and I went to this prison all by myself. My crew was staying back in Toronto. This was sort of like a pre-interview. And I had never been inside a women’s prison, right. I did not know what to expect. I was, based on the news articles that I had read, I was expecting her to be a little bit more brutish, certainly more hardened. And, I’ll be honest, I was, I was a little bit scared. I, I knew I was gonna be in a room, closed room with her. I didn’t know, you know, how if we were gonna jive or how she was gonna be and or if I was gonna say something that would offend her. And I show up to the prison and out bounces this woman with pink hair and a pink tank top and she’s wearing leggings. She’s like, Hey, you’re already here. And I looked at her and I was like, Danielle. And it was, and it was somebody you, you just wouldn’t expect, almost, you know? I know she was not rainbow bright, but that’s what she reminded me of at the time.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
What about the prison itself? What were you expecting when you walked in there versus what you got?
Cristina Howorun
Well, I expected, a lot of bars, I expected there to be cement floors and if anybody’s ever seen, you know, Orange is the New Black or Wentworth on Netflix, it’s, that’s what I expected. I knew that there was some sort of more rehabilitative properties to these institutions, but I did not expect to see, you know, rabbits going across the lawn and beautiful gardens and women just milling about in regular clothes, because they don’t wear jumpers. They wear their own clothes that they bring in with them. So you can’t really, from a distance, tell the difference between inmates and staff members. You know, they’re, they’re walking around and, very friendly. Everybody that I encountered, particularly in Edmonton, was exceptionally friendly, and you don’t think that because, you know, a lot of these, or these prisons are multi security levels, so you do have people that are maximum medium and minimum. But you can be a minimum security and still be a convicted killer.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Really?
Cristina Howorun
Oh, yeah. The classifications have much more to do with your behaviour as an inmate than your behavior on the outside. Hmm. So you don’t know who you’re gonna be interacting with. And yet everybody was quite pleasant. Definitely when it came to women interacting with Charlie. You know, there were inmates that were giving him piggyback rides. They would all run to check in on him. Like, Hey, Charlie. Oh, is that a new dinosaur? Are you gonna draw me a picture today? And there was a real genuine care for this child from all of these women that surrounded him. And it was, it was really quite touching because a lot of these women, you know, two thirds of women serving time in in federal institutions are moms. So most of those women don’t have regular contact with their kid. And you could see that they were sort of portraying that onto to Charlie.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
I think this is gonna be a theme in our chat in terms of expectations versus reality. So before we get into it, maybe zoom out a bit and just quickly, what got you interested and you, you went inside, different women’s prisons, you spent a lot of time there. What were you after and what is the documentary hoping to show?
Cristina Howorun
Well, I’ve been interested in jails and prisons for over a decade now. It’s kind of been my unofficial beat. You know, I’ve gone into lots of provincial jails. I’ve done lots of coverages on different stories, different topics that involve jails and prisons, but I had never been in a woman’s prison. And I recall it was around last Christmas or two Christmas ago, I guess at this point. I was watching Wentworth on Netflix and I saw this little child being raised in the prison and I thought, this is a really kind of interesting program. I wonder if it’s real, and I wonder if we do it. And quick Google search. And I found out, oh my goodness, we actually allow mothers to raise their children inside these prisons. And I immediately was like, this is a documentary. We need to see how this works. How are the children ingesting? How can you have convicted killers and, you know, robbers and attempted murderers raising children in a prison? And so I, I really set out, January of 2022, I started. reaching out to the government, trying to get contacts, how, how could I get in there filling in, you know, a plethora of forms. And it was, it was a really tough, it was a tough, sell, but, but they allowed us in, so we went into two presents, Edmonton and then Grand Valley in Kitchener, and I really wanted to have an understanding of how this program works, but also knowing that so few women are actually eligible for this program. Because of the crimes that they committed or because of the age of their children. You know, how does somebody become, how does somebody maintain a bond with their child when they may never see them again, you know, face to face because they’re serving a life sentence. And I really wanted to try and examine that. And I think that we, we got a good understanding of how that would work.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Like you, I had no idea this program existed until, you reached out to me and mentioned it. What is it exactly? How long has it been around for? Who uses it? You mentioned not many people can qualify. Tell me a little bit more about it in general.
Cristina Howorun
Okay, so about 20 years ago, the federal government formally implemented this program and it had been in the works for some time, but it allows mothers who are able to achieve medium and minimum security classifications the opportunity to raise their children inside the prison with them up until about five years old. So when the kid has to start going to school, they’re no longer the responsibility of Corrections Canada, obviously, you know, they have to go to school and they have to leave the prison. And the idea is that, you know, the women that are allowed to do so, they, they have to meet those security classifications, but they can’t also have violent crimes. Right. So they cannot have committed any sort of crime against a child. They’re not allowed to if, if they’re a convicted murderer. You know, there’s a lot of different. And they won’t be totally outright with me and upfront with what those classifications are, but little, little things. The more violent you are, the less chance you have of having your child. You have to have children protective services involved as well, because children’s aid does need to have the ability to check the pulse of the situation. Then they have to find a babysitter. So they have to find a babysitter, a woman that also meets all of those qualifications who has agreed that yes, when you go to class or when you go to do your job in the laundry or whatever your, your work position may be, that I will watch your child for you. So there’s a lot of little tiny hurdles that have to be crossed, but it’s only been used by about 150 women. Over 20 years because of these hurdles, but they, they’re able to raise their child with them. So there’s like a special room that has almost like, it’s like an adjacent room where the child’s crib is or where their, as they get older, their bed is, and that’s how the mother can keep tabs on their child. The child is with them at all times. And yeah, the child is just surrounded by, you know, convicted criminals all hours of the day.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Well, forgive my naivete, but in practice, and I don’t mean this to sound stereotypical or anything, but is it not a little harmful to a young child to be raised in a prison no matter how nice, the convicted women are around? Like what about interaction with other children, exploring the world, developing those social skills, like it, it seems a very odd place for such a young child.
Cristina Howorun
I 100% agree with you there it’s nothing, Jordan, that I would’ve anticipated seen. I can say this, that with Charlie, because he was three and, and then four years old, the prison had worked at a program where he left with Danielle, his mother, twice a week, and they went to a mummy child playgroup. So it was outside of the prison, it was within the community and he had this regular interaction with other children. But I, I still question, I mean, I could see how well these children are adjusted now, but you hear them use terms like lacerations. And as Charlie, he was forced to, to leave the prison because of a Covid outbreak. You know, he was questioning like, who’s gonna count me at night? Like, is the guards coming? Are the guards gonna be coming? What time do the guards come around? And it was, it’s almost like he anticipated that life would continue because, you know, he was three years old when he went in there. That’s what he remembers. So there’s a lot of good literature that really does say that the bond between a child and its mother is paramount, and particularly during its infancy and, you know, being able to breastfeed and have that sort of nurturing and bonding. But I, I think that that’s part of the reason perhaps that you know, they don’t allow seven, eight, and 12 year olds to be living there. Because you do need that sort of social interaction, and you do need to grow up with other kids, or at least not entirely surrounded by inmates.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Why did some of the women that you met make that choice to have their kids with them? And I guess what I’m trying to get at is did they have that conversation with themselves about what is best for the kid? How do you come to that determination? Like obviously as a parent, you want your child close to you no matter what, but how do you wrestle with the idea of, is this environment the best place for my child, even if it keeps them close to me?
Cristina Howorun
Well, I’ll speak for Danielle here and Danielle’s situation, I’ll speak to it. She had been fighting to get Charlie in the prison. She had done all of these courses. She was fighting with her ex to try and bring him in, and he, he was like, there’s no way. But she, she looked at it as, Charlie’s father was also struggling with addiction and this is the environment that Charlie was being brought up in, was being bounced around from, you know, Edmonton grandparents to Lethbridge grandparents to his dad for a couple of days until his dad would go on on a spiral and you know, would relapse and then dump Charlie off at another grandparent’s house or family member’s house and that wasn’t stability and she looked at us. I’m sober and I have been for a year. Let me take care of him here. I’m already in the right unit. This is almost like an apartment setting. This is better for him to have a sober mom who’s present than somebody that’s struggling with addiction that isn’t. And so it almost seems like a no brainer in Danielle’s situation. But I spoke with other moms who said they had the opportunity to do so, but they didn’t wanna separate their kids because they could only bring one child in, because one child was eligible under that age, the other one wasn’t. Or, there was a pregnant woman. Who was told she was not eligible to bring her child into the prison and she delivered the baby in hospital and her mother took custody of the child and brought them back to the Ottawa area, and she was told she could reapply and maybe her baby would be allowed to come back, you know, when they were four months old. And she said, well, at that point, no, I don’t want them, you know, being moved back and forth and back and forth. I’ll only be in here for a year max at this point. I may as well just let him stay with my mom. She just said it wasn’t a good environment if you’re, particularly if they’re gonna be going back and forth, but I understand it, right? Having a child with you, you know what’s happening with them, particularly when they’re young. It’s, it’s one thing if you can talk to your eight or 12 year old or 16 year old on the phone, you’re not doing that with a two year old. You wanna know what’s happening. And I know that that was a, a big motivating factor for at least the two moms I spoke with that did raise their children in prison.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
So far, this has been a really pleasant conversation for one about a prison. Tell me about some of the problems that you encountered during your time inside, because this program sounds good. These stories, have heard about Danielle and Charlie and being sort of taken care of by the group are amazing, but it can’t be all like cottages and rabbits on the lawn and, and this kind of thing. Like this is, this is a prison.
Cristina Howorun
It is a prison and where you can see that most evidently is in the maximum security unit. So we were not allowed to bring our cameras in there. But I can tell you it wasn’t. It was exactly what you expect a prison to look like everywhere throughout this, particularly like Grand Valley, everywhere you go throughout there. You have a lot of freedom of movement, but once you enter the maximum security unit, there’s a sally port to get you in. There’s a lot of verification of who you are and what you’re doing. It’s grey and bleak and everybody’s sort of locked away. You don’t see people roaming the halls. You don’t see people you know, gossiping in the corners or even just being social with one another. You really don’t see inmates because they’re locked away. The inmates there only have one hour of outdoor activity per day. They are in a separate yard that is totally blocked off. They actually have like this black plastic thing over the fences, so they can’t even properly see out. The gym equipment that they have doesn’t have cables or removable parts. It’s the kind of thing you might see at certain newer playgrounds, right? So that they can’t take it apart and use it as weapons.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
This is the typical prison that we’re talking about.
Cristina Howorun
Oh, a hundred percent. They had meal hatches on, on those doors, whereas, you know, the women in medium and minimum are making their own meals and they’re using butcher knives now, butcher knives that are on chains and linked to the, to the wall. But you know, they, they still have access to sharp materials. It’s the real deal prison with video cameras everywhere. We had an opportunity to see the surveillance area and I was shocked at how many cameras, there were throughout the prison, but, particularly in the max unit. You know, and something that really was very apparent was the overrepresentation of Indigenous women within the facility. It was, it was troubling to say the least, and you could even see it reflected on, you know, all of the diversity boards and the programming that was at the prison. There was a lot of Indigenous programming, which is fantastic, but it’s also sad that there was so much representation there of, you know, a population group that is, you know, 3% of Canada.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
How did the inmates that you weren’t interviewing feel about you getting this kind of access to their facility? I mean, you said yourself, you spent weeks in there.
Cristina Howorun
We did, we started going in June and our last shoot was, I believe it was two days before Christmas. So we were there in and out for quite some time. One thing that I think is important to mention is that we were there so often and so frequent, that there was no way for the prisons to actually hide the bad, you know, that troublesome inmates or, you know, make sure everything was clean and proper. Like I think that they realized very quickly that they couldn’t put a lot of lipstick on things. So we, I feel like we got a real sense of, of how the facility really was. Now there were some women that were very friendly with us, and, and there was definitely some death stares, you know, like that dirty look of like, because of you, I can’t go over to this area. Why are you here? Why are you questioning things? Why are you talking to this woman? I, I got a lot of that. This woman is no good or this woman is great. Why aren’t you talking to me? I have a story too. So there was definitely some jealousy and, and definitely I would, I understand, that this is the place where they live. And here we are with a camera crew, almost like, I don’t wanna say tourists, but we’re going home at the end of the day. I’m gonna go home and I’m gonna have the internet and I’m gonna be able to Google things and I’m gonna be able to look up things and, you know, listen to a great podcast like yours and do whatever I want. But, but they don’t have these abilities. So it was almost, I felt a little bit like we were kind of flaunting and I did feel bad because it was here. We were walking around with a lot of freedom. And our freedom was just gonna get expanded when we got home.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
I can’t get you to walk us through, everything you saw in all the women you met. It is a fascinating look inside places like you mentioned that, that few Canadians get to see. I will ask you, before we let you go, what was your biggest takeaway from the time you spent there? And also just how would you like viewers to come to this doc because I can already imagine some people who are listening now thinking that the way you’ve described these prisons, aside from the maximum security part, sounds frankly too nice for women accused of murder. Convicted of murder and other things. You know, that attitude and where it comes from. Right?
Cristina Howorun
Oh, I do. And, and I’ll say even while I was there, I had definite shots of that. There’s a, family visiting area, for example, that’s a cabin where you can have overnight visits with your family. You have to earn those. But one day we weren’t allowed near them, and it’s because Terri-Lynne McClintic was there. Terri-Lynne McClintic, as your listeners, I’m sure recall was convicted of murdering eight year old Victoria Stafford in 2009. And all I was thinking was, how is she here with her family and having overnight visits, you know, she doesn’t deserve that. Victoria Stafford should be graduating high school and she’s not because of, you know, the actions of this woman, so it’s very easy to, to fall into that trap. What I did learn, and, and I know this sounds a little bit Pollyanna here, but. The programs that are there are there for a reason and they really do have a beneficial impact. Melissa, you know, has her own place that she’s one of the inmates you spoke with for the first time in her entire life, and she is doing really well as a mom. And hasn’t had any sort of relapse whatsoever. I looked at one of the women there that was serving a life sentence and was only released earlier this month. She was released and it was a life sentence, and you still think about that. She was, you know, she’s doing tons of Indigenous practices, but it’s also helping her heal and helping her psychologically. And now she’s out in the community and those things that she learned at that prison and the way that she was treated as a human as opposed to an animal, that’s important because now she’s out there with us. So somebody that was convicted of murdering a man is now out in the community. I want her to be able to, to know what it’s like to be part of a society, and I think we should look at it that way, that reintegration and rehabilitation is exceptionally important because even with a life sentence, most inmates get out and most inmates come back into the community. And I’d rather them, and I’m sure they would rather be law abiding, you know, contributing members versus. Potentially having future victims.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Cristina, thank you so much for this. The documentary is excellent. It aired last night across the country on City News. You can watch it on demand right now if you would like by visiting citynews.ca. If you don’t even wanna type that into a browser, you can go to our show notes and we will put a link to it right there. Cristina, thanks again.
Cristina Howorun
Thank you so much, Jordan.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Cristina Howorun speaking to us about her new documentary Veracity Prison Moms. As I mentioned, the links and the show notes, that was The Big Story. For more head to TheBigStorypodcast.ca or find us on Twitter @TheBigStoryfpn. You can always reach out to us via email hello@TheBigStorypodcast.ca, and you can call us and leave a voicemail if you like 416-935-5935. You can find The Big Story in absolutely every podcast player on the internet, and if you have one that doesn’t have The Big Story on it, please use that contact information I just gave you and let us know so we can get on there. Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings. We’ll talk tomorrow.
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