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You are listening to a Frequency Podcast network production.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Today’s story is about a government review of just a single policy in Canada’s eighth most populous province. But it’s a story that needs national attention. Especially right now. Why is that? Because it’s the first real chance we get to see if a Canadian government will follow some of the recent trends from America.
CLIP
The transgender community in the United States is reeling as Republican lawmakers and prominent conservative figures try to curtail their rights. A record number of bills relating to healthcare access to bathrooms, even drag performances have already been tabled this year in state legislatures.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
The policy in question here, number 713 in New Brunswick is a pretty simple one. It’s also been in effect for only three years after it took 10 years to design. The government that’s now reviewing it is the same government that put it into action. Exactly what it is they’re reviewing about the policy isn’t clear, nor is what might be done to it. Could it be revoked, changed? No idea. But when Pride Month begins with a Premier of a province talking about policy changes to a measure that’s meant to protect queer and trans school kids, everyone who understands the larger moment we’re in right now needs to be paying attention. What happens next isn’t certain, but the review of policy 713 will likely show us just what we can expect in the months to come across the country.
I am Jordan Heath Rawlings. This is The Big Story. Dale Smith is a freelance journalist in the Parliamentary Press Gallery in Ottawa. He is also a national columnist for Xtra, where he wrote this piece. Hello Dale.
Dale Smith
Hi. Thanks for having me.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Thank you for finding time for us. I have to say, I don’t think enough people across the country are paying attention to what’s going on in New Brunswick. So maybe just for some context, tell me about New Brunswick’s policy 713. What is it? What was it created to do?
Dale Smith
So Policy 713 is about creating safe spaces for LGBTQ students in schools in the province. And it was a policy that took about a decade to develop from first stakeholder discussions and so on, right up until implementation. And that happened over the space of three different governments during that period. So it was a long time coming. It was nothing that came out of the blue. But suddenly there’s been this controversy around it, which a lot of people are having difficulty understanding why.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Let’s talk about the controversy a little bit. What is happening to the policy right now?
Dale Smith
So the Premier Blaine Higgs decided somewhat out of the blue that this policy needed to be reviewed less than three years after it was implemented, and no one is quite sure why he held a scrum with reporters a couple of weeks ago that spanned 18 minutes. And in it, he kept trying to defend the need for this review, saying things like, parents had a right to know if their children were changing their first names or pronouns in a school setting. Even though part of the, the point of this program is to create a safe space, particularly for students who don’t have, what they perceive to be a supportive environment at home. Higgs also tried to justify this as saying that New Brunswick has the highest per capita rate of exodus of students from the public system in the country. And also claimed that there were hundreds of complaints about this, even though media reports have only been able to point to three or four, and some of those appeared to be inauthentic from what they could see. So again, there’s a real question as to why now. And he hasn’t really given a, a proper explanation.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
When we say the policy is being reviewed, what does that mean practically? Are they considering getting rid of it all together, altering it, not changing it at all? What are the possible outcomes here?
Dale Smith
Well, that’s what we don’t really know. The fact that he won’t really say what he’s after in this is, is kind of giving us that question around is he reviewing it in terms of scrapping it. Is he reviewing it in terms of taking out the portion about not informing parents, which undermines the whole point about creating a safe environment for these students. Is it that he, you know, is gonna let it go ahead? We, we just have no idea because he’s not actually saying A, why it’s necessary, and B, what outcome he’s looking for.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
We’ll get in in just a second to how he’s tried to explain this and, and the language that’s being used because I think it’s, pretty critical to your point in writing this story. But maybe first, like I mentioned our listeners, not many from New Brunswick though. Shout out to the ones who are there. Could you tell us just a little about Blaine Higgs and his government? How long have they been in power for? What party are they? What kind of governance have they offered?
Dale Smith
Blaine, Higgs is a conservative Premier. He is in his second term, the first one he was in a minority situation and cobbled together an agreement with one of the other minor parties. And then during the pandemic, decided to hold an election and got himself a majority. That’s where he’s at politically right now. He’s also a former Irving executive, and for people who are not familiar with the Irvings are one of the most powerful families and companies within the province. So he’s also embedded in that particular power structure as well.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
So he was the Premier when this policy was implemented then?
Dale Smith
Yes. But like I also said, this was developed over the course of three separate governments because it had taken so long. But yes, he was the Premier when this was implemented. And he’s now claiming that this was somehow done quietly. And is kind of imputing, somewhat nefarious motives for this, even though, you know, like we said, this was a 10 year development process and everyone knew what was going on with it.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Take us back then to his announcement of the review and the way he defended it. As you mentioned, you kind of quote him at length in your piece. And, and since a lot of this, I think a lot of this conversation is gonna be about the language we use when talking about this stuff. Maybe, you could just read us some of the things he said.
Dale Smith
Well, the big quote I had in my piece was actually from question period where he’s asking the opposition leader Susan Holt, if she’d like to answer the question, does she think there should be drag story time for young kindergarten, grade one, grade two? Does she think that’s appropriate? And then goes on to say, we’re dealing with young minds, we’re dealing with assets and factors of how we let these children grow and make decisions when they’re able to make decisions. And he also, in that 18 minute scrum that I referenced earlier, went on this point about him saying that children in kindergarten or elementary school shouldn’t be exposed to drag queens. And in talking about, you know, they need to make a decision when they’re older. The reporters asked like, you know, do you believe that being gay is a choice? And he refused to answer that question. So there was this really kinda weird caginess around it. But one of the other things he also said was, are we teaching tolerance and acceptance or teaching promotion? And when they tried to push back on that, he kind of backtracked on what he was saying. But you know, it, it’s also worth noting that he like said this out loud, and that raises a lot of red flags.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
What are those red flags?
Dale Smith
Part of it is that there’s this notion that children are somehow socialized into becoming gay or trans rather than, you know, being born into it. And therefore, if we don’t expose them to gay people or drag queens or trans people, that somehow they will not turn gay or trans. But that, you know, the, the research clearly shows that that is not actually the case, but it’s also feeding into this particular moral panic coming up, particularly from the US that’s trying to equate things like drag story time and so on with this notion about grooming children for, you know, sexual assault and that’s, you know, A, patently offensive, but B, also just completely not true.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
In terms of the larger picture, which we’re also gonna talk about in a second. You mentioned Higgs said, you know, parents have a right to know, and the phrase parental rights comes up. What does that phrase signify and why is it so important to note that language, like in a discussion like this?
Dale Smith
The language is not actually new. I remember that, you know, growing up in rural Alberta and that being part of the conversation around that time as well. But it’s this notion that, you know, parents somehow need to be aware if their children are exhibiting, you know, signs of being gay or trans at school and therefore that, I’m not sure quite the logic, as in if parents know they can possibly put a stop to it or something, or like there, there seems to be this, this particular social dynamic or stigma around it that, you know, we’re, we’re expecting parents to want, you know, they, they should know about it. And the, the fact that parents may not be supportive doesn’t seem to enter into these particular concerns, unless that is the concern is that, you know, they don’t want parents to be supportive. They want parents to put a stop to it kind of thing. Seems to be the underlying motivation behind these particular kinds of concerns. Which again, is, is what Policy 713 was entirely designed for was these students who don’t have safe environments at home to be able to at least express themselves or be themselves in a school environment so that they can, you know, focus on actually, you know, learning rather than having to hide their identities and who they are.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
This is obviously, so far just a review of one policy in one province, but you mentioned the larger picture, especially in the United States. Can you give us some context in terms of what kind of legislation this kind of language or viewpoint has been pushing into practice?
Dale Smith
Well, we’re seeing in several American states things like bands around drag shows or anything like that, but not just drag shows, but like drag bands in particular, which also captures trans people, and it’s kind of an attack on simply the rights of of LGBT people to take up space within the public environment. Again, using the same language around grooming and, you know, potential sexual assault and so on. You know, under the whole, won’t somebody please think of the children kind of aspect. But we’re seeing a number of these coming in, in a number of American states, and it’s also starting to slowly filter up in Canada through some of the groups, particularly religious ones who hold sway in certain parts of certain provinces who are taking inspiration from these and starting to put pressure on particularly provincial governments around the country. But we’re also seeing the same rhetoric from, for example, Maxime Bernier of the People’s Party who is running in, the byelection in Portage-Lisgar right now. He’s come out with policies about, you know, ending gender, gender theory, or, I, I can’t remember his exact language around it, but it was pretty much around ensuring that we criminalize any kind of gender affirmation for minors.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
And we are speaking just as June, which is Pride Month begins. Does this Pride month feel more politically fraught than it has in recent years? Just given everything that’s going on.
Dale Smith
This year, we’re seeing a lot more of these particular kind of instances that are happening in in places like the US, but we also have to recognize like Uganda just passed a very draconian anti-gay law. Ghana has, recently done the same as well. And there’s a lot of talk about how American evangelical groups have been in those countries and pushing for these laws. So there is kind of a connection in there as well, through that. And so the fact that these kinds of laws or legislation, even if they don’t actually get passed, legislation that is being debated around you know, the LGBT community’s ability to hold space in the public, I think is this year much more prevalent than it has been in previous years, even though there’s been very political prides, particularly in places like Toronto in the last few years around things like, inclusion of police and being more inclusive of racialized minorities within the LGBTQ community, things like that. So, as a community, we’re, we’re trying to figure some of this stuff out in order to be as inclusive as, as we possibly can. And as we are in the middle of kind of having these own internal kind of debates around this, we’re being attacked once again from the outside. And yeah, it’s kind of giving us a reminder that Pride started as a riot and as a protest. And you know, the, the notion about Pride is, having a right to exist in public and you know, not being attacked for it. And so that’s kind of where we’re seeing it kind of coming almost full circle again this year.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
In New Brunswick, and I know, I know you’re not in New Brunswick right now, so I’m not asking you to speak for the people of New Brunswick, but you mentioned that there were a few people citing examples that may or may not have occurred in support of this review. Who’s pushing back against it if anyone?
Dale Smith
I did speak to the official opposition leader in the province, Susan Holt, and she is trying to use what platform she has within the legislature to try and get answers as to just what Blaine Higgs is trying to get at with this review and is raising concerns around what he’s saying about this review as in like, oh, he’ll have it done in two weeks, but has not reached out to any groups or stakeholders or, youth or anyone like that, leading people to have questions about, just how thorough this review is actually gonna be. But also the province’s child and youth advocate has also spoken out a bit against this review and is saying that it’s, it’s flawed and unnecessary. And pointing to the need for a policy like 713. So there are people in civil society and political spheres who are pushing back against this, but I don’t know enough about the rest of of the province in terms of how this is being received or not.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
You write that this is a test case for provinces. What does that mean and what kind of precedent is in play here?
Dale Smith
Well, I think it’s a test case because it very much appears that Higgs has bought into this moral panic around drag queens and trans people that is emanating from the US. And when we’ve got particular groups in Canada who follow what happens in the states and take inspiration from it, if they see one Premier basically capitulate to these kinds of demands or, or this particular rhetoric around a moral panic like this. I quite suspect that they will start becoming emboldened and start going to other Premiers and other provinces and questioning similar policies in those particular provinces. We have a lot of conservative Premiers around the country right now who have a very animated base who are buying into a lot of this rhetoric that’s coming out of the US. And there are, some of them have elections coming up. If they are looking to appease this particular voter base, we could see more of these reviews happen in order to placate them or or to get those particular kinds of votes. We just had an election in Alberta and one candidate who compared trans children to feces in cookie batter won a landslide in that writing. 79% of the vote.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
That’s scary.
Dale Smith
Now, Danielle Smith says that she’s not going to be in caucus. I don’t believe Danielle Smith in that this will, I doubt this will be permanent. I’m sure that Danielle Smith will find it in her heart to forgive this candidate within a few months of her being in the penalty box. But the fact that you had a candidate who could say something like this and win a landslide should be concerning. There should be a lot of people questioning what exactly, you know, we think is allowing this kind of thing to happen.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
So what comes next here, I believe a couple of minutes ago, you mentioned about two weeks is what Higgs has said.
Dale Smith
Yeah.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
You also mentioned, we have no idea what he’s actually reviewing or plans to do, but what are you, what are you watching for, I guess?
Dale Smith
I’m just watching for a sign in terms of where this is going and if there’s any sign of what these, if he’s doing, any kind of stakeholder conversations or consultations around it. I haven’t heard anything from the people I’ve spoken to yet. But I’m trying to keep an eye on it as as much as I can. Again, the other thing I’m, I’m keeping an eye on is which other Premieres start feeling the heat from these same kinds of groups who are pushing this same moral panic.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Dale, thank you so much for walking us through this and for paying attention to things out of New Brunswick that concern us all.
Dale Smith
It’s my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Jordan Heath Rawlings
Dale Smith, national columnist at Xtra. That was The Big Story. For more, you can head to The BigStorypodcast.ca. You can find us on Twitter @TheBigStoryfpn, or you can write to us via email hello@TheBigStorypodcast.ca. You can also use an old fashioned phone to call us up at (416)-935-5935 and leave us a message. You can find The Big Story absolutely anywhere you get podcasts, as I’ve said before, and will say again, no doubt wherever it lets you please leave a rating, leave a review, pass this show on to someone you care about who needs a little news in their morning routine. Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings. We’ll talk tomorrow.
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