Toronto Mayor Olivia Chow on cutting deals with Doug, fixing a broken city and putting pressure on Ottawa

CLIP You’re listening to a frequency podcast network production in association with CityNews.

Jordan: If you gave it just the right twist, it could be a buddy comedy. She’s progressive. He’s conservative, he loves cars. She rides a bike every day. He’s about the millionth white man to be the premier of Ontario. She is the first Asian woman to be mayor of Toronto. Naturally, during her campaign, he wasn’t exactly rooting for her.

CLIP: Premier Doug Ford: Unfortunately, it’d be an unmitigated disaster if Olivia Chow got in. Her policies don’t work. Matter of fact, what is her policies? I’ve heard one policy, I’m raising taxes.

Jordan: But like all good scripts, once fate forced them together, strange things began to happen. And so in September, premier Doug Ford shared day podium with Toronto Mayor Olivia Chow, he thoughtfully presented her with a photo that included his late brother Rob, honouring her late husband Jack Layton. And the two of them vowed to work together to find a deal that would help fix the city’s ugly financial situation.

CLIP: Premier Doug Ford: I’ve also had the pleasure of getting to know the mayor as a thoughtful leader who brings people together because that’s how you get things done by working together. And Mayor Chow and I we’re committed to working together.

Jordan: Cut now two earlier this week when the two appeared together. Again, not just to sing one another’s praises, but to unveil a historic deal that will among other things, give the province control of two major Toronto highways, provide millions of dollars for Toronto’s transit system and shelter crisis, boost the city’s housing plans, and allow Doug Ford to fulfill his dream of turning Ontario Place into a spa.

CLIP: Premier Doug Ford: And of course, I want to thank the mayor for her commitment and dedication to getting this deal done. It’s amazing to see what we can accomplish when we work together, when we put our differences aside and focus on what unites us. So Mayor, thank you so much.

Jordan: So how did we go from unmitigated disaster to, of course, I’d like to thank, how does a massive deal like this come together anyway? And when you become mayor of a city with, well an awful lot of problems, how do you decide what to fix first? I’m Jordan Heath Rawlings. This is The Big Story in studio in conversation with Toronto Mayor Olivia Chow, a progressive politician based in Toronto for more than two decades now as a school trustee, as a city councillor, as a federal member of parliament, a mayoral candidate, and now for the past six months, the first person of colour and the first woman since amalgamation to be the city’s mayor. Olivia, that’s a lengthy introduction. Can I call you Olivia or should I call you Mayor Chow?

Mayor Olivia Chow: Olivia is good.

Jordan: I want to start by talking about this deal that you’ve announced with the province this week. And I’m somebody who’s covered Toronto politics a lot. We’ve made podcasts about the Ford Legacy. I want to ask you first, you’ve known Doug for an awful long time. Do you remember the first time you met him? Do you remember your first impression of him?

Mayor Olivia Chow: I remember first time I met his brother. Everybody does Ford. Yes, we were on city council together. I didn’t serve with Doug Ford much. It was mostly with his brother Rob Ford, who later became the mayor. When he became the mayor, I then became a member of prominent, I left city council. But Rob, Rob Ford has a special way of working. Big heart has flaws, have a different approach in life, very, very much in touch of the needs of the people. But his way of dealing with is of course slightly different than my way, but the desire to serve, you can see that from the Ford family.

Jordan: In terms of you and Doug, you guys have both, I think kind of alluded to a very friendly, maybe frenemies kind of relationship in getting this done. Before you became mayor during the campaign, he said, as I’m sure you know, that you would be an unmitigated disaster at the press conference this week. He was very sweet and called you somebody that he enjoyed working with and presented you with a family photo from when the ferries were named after your late husband. How do you manage that relationship? How did you go from that to this?

Mayor Olivia Chow: From disastrous,

Jordan: Unmitigated

Mayor Olivia Chow: Disaster? Not just disastrous. There’s no mitigating factors. No, really, it was about how to achieve something for people. He wants to make sure that we have a city where life is a bit affordable, more affordable. So both he and I wouldn’t want to see people sleeping on the street or people pay too much for rent. So building affordable housing, putting money in shelter, he agreed to that. He also, because he lives in the city of Toronto, also understand the need for investing in public transit, which is what he did. He wanted to buy the new subway cars on the bluer line. The unfortunate thing is that because it’s conditional, it takes three parties. Right now, $1.6 billion is locked because the federal government haven’t come in yet. And his shelter money is also dependent on the federal government coming in to pay their share for the refugees, the cost of sheltering refugees. And then of course, you might’ve heard the Garner and the Don Valley Parkway. It being both of them being uploaded makes perfect sense because the regional highway, and that was really more of a long-term solution that deals with our structural financial problems. So those are the general areas of what we accomplish together. We said we would continue, our staff will continue to work together so that there will be other elements of the deal. Or because it was only two months, it was really fast, they worked hard. But some of those are one time only for two or three years, we still have to deal with the structural problem. So that piece is going to happen in the coming two years. And having that assurance was really important to me and for the residents of Toronto because it provides some hope that we can now take the money that we have to fix a very old highway, two old highways to now build affordable housing, shelter people and start repairing increasing the service of public transit. All of those things are really important.

Jordan: I want to ask you in a moment about the federal government’s role and how much pressure this deal, I guess from your point of view, hopefully puts on them to get involved. But first I’m fascinated by how a deal like this comes together. As you mentioned, it was very quick. Your respective staffs are obviously put together. The framework of it. How does it close? Is it you and Doug together looking at papers, making sure you both agree? Who says yes? Who has the final say? And were there times at which one or both of you almost ended up a no?

Mayor Olivia Chow: Yep, of course it’s a deal, right? It was on a Sunday night. We had a conversation at around eight or 9:00 PM and we said, okay, we’re going forward. And then you saw the press conference on Monday. Who

Jordan: Was the final person that agreed to it?

Mayor Olivia Chow: Both of you? Both of us. It takes both of us to say yes, he understood what I need and I understood what he need needed. And it was, as I said, when you hear each other, see each other and find the common ground, we could arrive to a certain place and did we agree with everything? No. But in order to get to a place, you have to be able to be empathetic to each other needs.

Jordan: The premier himself called it a really one-sided deal. He says, you got the better of it by far. Did you rip him off? Do you agree?

Mayor Olivia Chow: No, not at all. Because he finally was able to, right. And historic wrong in some ways, which is why both of us used the word historic. What’s the wrong? Well, having a city of Toronto to manage a regional highway, you’ll be driving along in Mississauga, coming down over to Garner, going east, and all of a sudden you cross the border and then the road looks, well, it’s the same road, the same highway garner, and all of a sudden, why is it that Mississauga didn’t have to deal with Garner? And in Toronto you do, right? Same thing with if you come down 404 to DVP coming down from Markham and all of a sudden, oh, nothing changed. Why is it the city of Toronto? Food to talk property tax base, have to manage it. Remember of a hundred dollars of taxes, you give only $9, come to the city of Toronto. The rest are your income tax, sales tax. $9 is your property tax. So hang on a second. If you think about it, $9 of a hundred dollars as 9% of the taxes you pay goes to, oh my God, police, TDC, clean water, public health and childcare and roads and parks and recreation. Oh my, you name it. Almost every aspect of your life, of your day, you wake up in the morning, turn on the tap, it’s the city of Toronto and you go out on the street, whether you drive the roads or public transit, city of Toronto, your kids might go to the community center. At the end of the school, again is the city. So it really, structurally we have a problem. 9% is not enough of the revenue that we get. So that’s why we require both provincial and federal government coming together to help it out. Help us out. If not, we really want to build housing. You can see the number of people that are in the food bank. Kids, seniors, one out of 10 Toronto rely on the food bank. Why rent is too high? Why? Because we haven’t built housing for all this time. So there’s so much more we could do

Jordan: In terms the immediate funds that come from the province, specifically for temporary housing and shelters during this winter. That’s a lot of money. I want to know first, how quickly does it get here and how quickly will people who are obviously looking at winter coming on right now be able to experience expansion? And secondly, where does the long-term solution come from? Because obviously that’s not going to help for longer than a winter or two.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Oh, you’re absolutely right. The money is conditioned on the federal government paying their share. It’s about $200 million of the cost of housing refugees.

Jordan: The shelter money as well.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Yeah. So it

Jordan: Doesn’t come until the federal government kicks in its part. Yes,

Mayor Olivia Chow: Which is a problem. It’s a problem because tonight there will be two or 300 people knocking on the door of our shelter services needing. Now, today is a bit not that cold, but

Jordan: It’s coming.

Mayor Olivia Chow: It’s coming. I know. And whether you the refugees from Ukraine or in Africa, you need a roof over your head. Especially those, well, they all do, but can you imagine if you’re arriving from Africa, you don’t have window clothes and you are on the street. So our shelters are full in the long term. So basically the federal government need to step up and say, yes, we will take charge of these refugees. When we first asked them, they said, go talk to the province. I now got the province on site. Now I’m going back to them. But in the long term, what we need to do is to say, alright, we have 11,000 people in shelters. Is there a more effective, efficient way to house them? Yes. This year alone, instead of putting them in shelter hotels, which we did during Covid time, we are putting them in houses and nonprofit organizations. So it’s cheaper than shelter hotels. We have a long-term plan to build modular housing to build smaller units so that people can move in, whether it’s refugees or people that are temporary homeless. They can get on their feet quickly and then find housing. So it’s a lot cheaper that way. They could cook their own meals. The shelter really have no capacity to do that. So we do have a plan, but the upfront money to put all that together is quite costly. We went from a few thousand number of homeless people to 11,000. It’s just mind boggling. It’s almost $800 million. We have to figure out a way. And some people would see people on the street and think there is a stereotype of people on the street. No, there are people that have worked all their lives, people that still work, people that sleep in their cars, people that got injured that can’t work and then got evicted and then they get desperate. So there are so many people that are facing eviction these days and a good percentage of them are children that their mom might be facing abusive relationship and they leave and then all of a sudden, where do you put the kids? Right? So they in our shelter motels, that also is expensive. We have to pay for motels because as a mom with several kids, so all of that, because of the housing crisis, that number just grew and then the refugees number went into 54% increase. Right?

Jordan: Yeah. It’s a daunting challenge. I’ll ask you this because you’ve mentioned it, the cold is coming. There are far more people without homes in this city than there have been in years past. Shelter is at a premium and you’re obviously empathetic to all those things. I can hear it in your voice. There are encampments that are being torn down in the city as we speak over the past couple of weeks. Those are for some people, their last option and their last stop. They can’t find space and shelters. They can’t go anywhere. How do you balance that empathy that you’ve just expressed with what’s happening to those people today?

Mayor Olivia Chow: It’s a very good question. Everyone that left the encampment, it’s so voluntary and were able to be housed in a shelter hotel with wrapped around services, whether it’s counseling or food. So they have all they need in order to live in that shelter hotel, and I think there were nine or 11 people housed that way from the encampment. There are still a few people left, but what you’ve seen, I think that case, that one was slightly different. There’s no other eviction happening in anywhere else. That one was very small space. Now it’s not me that directed in that case, that one, they went to court and the court said that because the fire captain said there had been three fires in that site and that they have combustible materials like prop paint tanks in that very small area with all the tents and I think what the shelter people, because of safety did what they did, and the next morning there was a fire that had three tents that were burned and then just two days later, another fire. As it gets colder, people try to keep warm with camp stove and that’s really, really dangerous, especially inside a tent, right? It can just goes off and I think she got her hands burned quite seriously. So we don’t want to see anyone hurt. We need to make sure that people that are staying outside have safe equipment so they don’t get burned. And that we also need to have alternatives. If people don’t want to be, we don’t want them to be outside, but if they want to move inside their space for them. So when I first became a mayor, I put together something called a housing benefit program. Over eight or 900 people now have gotten a space they can call their own. They’re not shelters. They’re actually a room or an apartment. They could move into permanently. The program’s rolling out 2000 people are going to be able to get in. That’s the first deal I made with Doug Ford. I said, I’ll put in 7 million. Can you put in 7 million? He said, yes, I’ll do it. That was in July. And we need the federal government to join us so that we could house a lot more people immediately. It’s not shelter. They actually got their own rooms and that’s the best solution. It’s called the Canada Ontario Housing Benefit. The city have never contributed to it, but I thought, you know what? It’s a good solution. Let’s do it.

Jordan: You’ve now mentioned a few times that the federal government needs to step up here. Have you heard from them at all since the announcement of this deal? Have you spoken to anyone up in Ottawa?

Mayor Olivia Chow: Our staff have this ongoing conversation.

Jordan: Do you know if the tenors changed since that deal? I mean, the deal was clearly they can’t have loved seeing you and Doug up there collaborating. Well, they’re sitting in Ottawa.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Yeah. Well, we took their suggestion to heart, right? The Prime Minister said, go and talk to the province. Okay, we’ll do that. They’re part of the conversation so they know what we need. Their staff was part of our staff team during all that discussion. So they know they have all the figures. It’s taking more time for them to make a decision. I remain very hopeful, would come up with a solution already. They’ve said yes to the housing accelerator fund that we applied for, which is great. I just need to get it through council. Then the funds will start flowing. And we need some funds for TDC subway cars, some for shelters, a bit more on housing and perhaps even some of the policing costs because as you have recently seen, we had to increase our anti hate unit. There are so many more demonstrations because all the consulates are in Toronto de trafficking where there is guns and drugs come through the waterways, and our marine unit is huge. So a lot of those work that we do are really professional. Well, mostly federal responsibility, making sure someone obey their bail order. All this conversation about bail, right? Bail order, bail reform. You can have the best law. If we don’t have enough police officer to make sure the person obey the bail order, then it won’t work, right? So all of that is something that we are hoping that the federal government would support us.

Jordan: There are some progressive folks who aren’t happy that you’re not standing up for Ontario Place and against the government’s plans for the land. First of all, what would you say to them? And second of all, could you have done anything if you wanted to?

Mayor Olivia Chow: I stood right beside Premier four and said, I believe the Waller front in Ontario Place should remain as a public park. I was very clear. I also said that the city of Toronto, and I know because I got the legal opinions from our solicitor. I saw that said, legally not a whole lot you can do. But I did not give land to the prophets. I did not say yes to disowning change they want. I basically said, look, we don’t agree. And Premier Ford came in and said, well, in that case, we are going to introduce legislation and expropriate the land that belonged to the city. Now they owned 95% or 98% of the land. We own a little piece expropriate the land. They’re going to tick over the planning power. I said, okay. In that case, there’s not a whole lot I can do because we tried fighting. The province went all the way to the Supreme Court the last time they tried to change the number of counselors. Remember from 40 something to 20 something. I do, yes. Yeah. And if the Supreme Court basically said, Nope, sorry, you have no right. I thought, okay, so knowing what my alternative is, which is not nothing much, I said, okay, rather than me spending money or City of Toronto taxpayer’s dollar to go to court knowing for well that we’re not going to win. Why would I want to do that? So I said, okay, I’m not going to take you to court knowing we’re going to lose, which is what that deal is all about. But I got to small things. It’s that the sign center that we would do some community-based science program just talking,

Jordan: Which means that building will stay, I guess.

Mayor Olivia Chow: I hope so. I think so. How else would you do programming in a space that don’t exist? And I just spoke to a local counselor. He’s going to bring together some scientists, some local folks, technological, we’re beginning the process to think about what kind of exciting things can stay there or recreate something locally. I think that’s important. And then the question of where the parking lot is going to be. So I want to save more as I love Ontario Place, I go there to watch the sunrise, sunset, moonrise. I take my grandkids there, beautiful trees. But so I want to keep as many, as much space a public space park space as possible. So not having to build that parking lot on that ground. I thought that might help.

Jordan: I want to ask you about a bigger aspect of what we just talked about there, because as I mentioned, you’ve seen some criticisms from ultra progressives about not fighting harder for Ontario place, but to your point, I mean it’s pragmatic. You want to get what you can get. And Doug Ford called the collaboration here. Amazing. Isn’t collaborating like this and the give and take kind of just part of what you’re supposed to do and how do we get back to the place if we were ever there where people accept that politicians won’t represent the most extreme itching for a fight side of their respective parties. They wanted you to fight Doug Ford because he’s Doug Ford.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Yes, I know, I know. And go to court knowing for well that I will lose. I don’t know, maybe because of my age. Moral victory is great, but I went to seven rallies, help created one or two of them to say to the federal government, do not invade Iraq. That was quite a long time ago. You would’ve seen me in many rallies, frontline, in terms of fighting for what I believe in. I’m still the same person. I also as a mayor, have the responsibility to work together with other people whether I agree with them or not. And I think it’s important that I build bridges with people that don’t necessarily see each other eye to eye so they could be more empathetic so that they could hear each other more. And I think we can, if we do that, we’ll have a better society, a better government. And in some ways, when things are so divisive, then everybody gets angry. You don’t mind being angry, but we need to transfer our anger into having something hopeful. If not, when you go from anger to despair, then it can descend into hate, which is what is not a good place for society to be at. As long as we feel that we have some power to make some differences and to hear each other and find some common ground. And it’s not one side is both sides need to do that. Let’s take the time because we are so Canadian. When someone step on me, my natural instinct say, I say, sorry, is someone that stepped on me. So we always say thank you. We say, sorry, we are so much. Think of Toronto. We have so many people of different from different countries, different nations, different nationality, different religious belief, living together by and large, fairly harmoniously. That’s hard. Yes, of course there is hate exist, but we, in order to overcome it, we need to say empathy’s more powerful. Let’s find the common ground. Let’s hear each other. Because that’s what makes Toronto a special place to be. If we don’t, who else, which other country, which other city in this world can have so many people, so diverse, a population living in harmony, like gosh, that’s what makes us special. That’s what make us as a beacon of hope. So that’s why people, whether they’re refugees, whether the immigrant, they come to Toronto, we want to maintain that, and we want a government, all three levels of government and its people to work together. I’m

Jordan: Really glad to get your take on that. While we have you here, I want to ask you a little bit more about the gardener and DVP, specifically huge parts of the city, regardless of who controls them and decides what to do with them. You are, as I’m sure most of our listeners know, a proud cyclist, somebody who advocates for pedestrians, the gardener and the DVP have been used in the past to host bike rides as part of the open streets Toronto that allows people to walk up and down them. Is the cyclist, first person in you a little nervous about what happens to those pieces of infrastructure now that it is controlled by. And again, glad you have a good relationship with Doug Ford. I know you’re familiar that he is a car first politician to say the least.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Yes, true. Did you guys

Jordan: Discuss that kind of

Mayor Olivia Chow: Stuff? No. No, we didn’t. But as we have more and more people living in the city, congestion is like, we need to deal with it. The more people we can get on a bike, mopeds, whatever you call them, e-bikes, you name it. The more we can get, the less cars on the road, the more people we can get in public transit, the better it is. The more people are riding the bike, the healthier the environment is cleaner, and it’s also cheaper. So it’s something that I think in all major metropolis around the world, it’s a progression that people then become more and more connected to the environment. I mean, well, we have the earth summit, it’s on right now in Dubai, and we know we have to deal with our greenhouse gas emission. We have a climate crisis on hands, and we have to look at ways where we could reduce our carbon footprint, better buildings, better mode of transportation. Those are really important. So one way or another we’ll get there. Whether it’s electric cars, more charging stations, all of those things. It’s a combination of different methodology. But fixing congestion is a key priorities also. And you can’t do that without a public transit. You can’t do that if we don’t have new subway cars and more investment in ttc.

Jordan: And that’s why you offload a couple highways.

Mayor Olivia Chow: That’s right.

Jordan: This has freed up. I know the city’s been in financial trouble. This has freed up an awful lot of money. Maybe not quite as much as you wanted just yet until the federal government comes on board. But does the freeing up of all this money give you options in terms of what you’re going to do with the property tax? And do you have any indication of which direction that’s going?

Mayor Olivia Chow: No, not yet.

Jordan: Oh, come on. I thought you

Mayor Olivia Chow: Were going to help. I know, because you know why? Because half those money are conditional to the federal government. So I don’t know. We’re still in the middle of a budget consultation. One of my campaign promise was to open up city Hall because in the past, you get the budget. It is the counselors and the staff that put it together, the mayor presented, and then you get five minutes to speak to it, and that is the end of it. We’ve turned it completely around. Before even put a budget together, we’re asking the people, what do you want? What do you want? What matters to you? Let’s invest in what matters to you. So I’m waiting for that to come back. And then the budget committee in January will put the budget together, have more consultation, send it over to me in February. On February 1st, I’ll present my budget. That’s when I, at that time, on February 1st, you’ll see what is the property tax increase. And if those of you that don’t want a big property tax increase, call up your member of parliament. Call up other levels of government, whoever represents you, provincial, federally,

Jordan: Where Willians see the investment from this deal first, leaving aside the stuff that we’re waiting on the federal government for, because you hope they come through, they may not. Where’s the easiest place that someone listening to this who lives in Toronto will see this investment?

Mayor Olivia Chow: TTC.

Jordan: Really?

Mayor Olivia Chow: Oh yeah. How fast? Well, immediate and more buses, more frequency.

Jordan: So some of those that were cut are now coming back.

Mayor Olivia Chow: 98% of all the buses or the bus route that have been cut all coming back. In fact, what’s amazing, because we have restored a service, almost 95% on the subway side of things, the number of people taking TGC over weekends have gone up really even almost as much pre covid or maybe even more. I’m just getting the figures right now. I’ll announce it later. But the indication is really decent. And one of the things that both the premier and I want in order to get more people taking public transit, we need to tell them, Hey, it’s safe. It’s safe. Come, don’t worry. So hiring people, eyes and ears on the ground, having the cell services, if you a sense of safety, all of that is what we are doing right now.

Jordan: One of the things I’m really curious about is when you took office, and a lot of people who are progressives, were happy to see you there. There was a broad perception that the city wasn’t working for people and it represented itself. It was represented in little things, right? Like the washrooms and the parks are closed. Obviously big things like the TTC being unsafe, garbage cans, overflowing downtown. Again, homelessness on the rise, encampments and parks. When you take office and you look at that, how do you make decisions on what to tackle first and how do you prioritize that stuff?

Mayor Olivia Chow: I inherited a 1.5 billion budget shortfall. I put that as my top priority. If I don’t get the money in, it doesn’t matter what my priority is, I can’t do anything. So what I did was to make life more affordable. Immediately I came up with shelter plan and a housing plan, housing plan that we would build 65,000 rent control rental homes. Some of them very affordable. So sheltering people get them inside housing. And then the third one is public transit. So making life more affordable for people was my top priority. Those are some of the key things. And then of course, better services, more immediate things. I opened up the pool longer so that kids have longer time because September, sometimes it’s still quite warm. So small things like that that matters to a whole lot of people for kids that want to go swimming after school. That’s what I’m

Jordan: Talking about, right? It’s like the broken windows theory where when somebody sees that overflowing trash can, it feels like the city is a mess, even though it’s just on that corner.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Exactly. So all those areas of services, whether it’s washrooms, trash, cans, potholes, I have a team working on it and I want to invest in those areas because for far too long, those basic services have been starved. And then you can cut a year, two year, three year. After a while, there’s not much you can cut. And then the surface just decrease more and more and more until you go, oh my God. So I’m building it back up. So you will see hopefully in the budget, libraries, community centers, parks, potholes, all those smaller things, the services will be restored so that it can be as better as it could be. Can we fix it in one year? Probably not. Because just making sure the washroom are open in winter takes several years to do, but we can have part of parties. You can still be able to go on the trail and hike the wintertime if you choose to and still be able to find a place. So going to washroom something so small, right? For some people it’s not that small. So back to your question, affordability, immediate service, can we have a safer city? So people don’t live in fear, especially if they take subways and walk on the streets. And that piece. Safety is also really important because if people don’t feel safe, then they either don’t take TT C or they don’t walk on the street, they don’t go to the park. That’s not good.

Jordan: MEChA, thank you so much for this. Thank you for your time. It’d be interesting to see if the federal government steps up, I guess. Do you have a deadline for them?

Mayor Olivia Chow: Well, we pass a budget mid-February. We’ll see. Tick

Jordan: Tick. Thank you again for your time.

Mayor Olivia Chow: Thank you.

Jordan: Toronto. Mayor Olivia Chow, graciously offering us some time. That was The Big Story. For more from us, you can head to The Big Story podcast.ca. If you want to offer us some feedback on this episode or as always any other, you can find us on Twitter at The Big Story fpn. You can talk to us via email. Hello, at The Big Story podcast.ca is that address, and we have a phone number if you want to call us up. Six nine three five five nine three five. Joseph Fish is the lead producer of The Big Story. Robyn Simon is also a producer on this program. Stephanie Phillips is our showrunner. Mary Jubran is our digital editor. Momin Qureshi helped us out with research on this episode. In particular, Ryan Clark, Christian Prohom and Mark Angly are our sound designers. This week, Diana Keay is our manager of business development and occasionally now chase producer. And I’m your host and executive producer, Jordan Heath-Rowlings, thanking you as always for listening. Have a safe weekend. We’ve got in this economy for you tomorrow. Then we’ll talk to you on Monday.