[00:00:00] Jordan Heath-Rawlings: People can change a lot over a decade spent wielding power. But they don’t often change completely. When Naheed Nenshi became mayor of Calgary. He did it by being blunt, bi-partisan, and by engaging on all platforms, especially, even back then, on social media, whatever you thought of liberals or conservatives, Nenshi was there in a purple tie to remind you that the divide could still be bridged. Hence the purple revolution.
[Recording] Naheed Nenshi: The Purple Army, the Purple Army was never about winning an election. It was, it’s a good thing. It was about revitalizing the public conversation in the city.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: Mayor Nenshi is leaving office this year. And while he still preaches the same honest, cooperative spirit, the political landscape has shifted around him.
The common ground he sought between the left and [00:01:00] the right is shrinking by the day. And these social media campaigns that he helped pioneer have thrown gasoline on that fire. When we sat down for a chat with Mayor Nenshi, we were hoping to learn what it’s like to lead a city through multiple crises, and to learn how it feels to watch his dreams of bipartisanship fade away.
The mayor was reflective and open, but he was still the mayor. Still fiercely proud of Calgary despite its challenges. Still trying to knot together the two fraying ends of the political spectrum. And still, no matter if he denies it, sounding like a man who doesn’t plan to be away from public life for very long. He might not want to hold office anymore, but he can still give a hell of an impromptu campaign speech.
So enjoy, today, a conversation with Calgary mayor Naheed Nenshi.
[00:02:00] I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings, this is The Big Story. Naheed Nenshi has been mayor of Calgary for more than a decade now. Hello, Mayor Nenshi.
Naheed Nenshi: Well hello! Thanks so much for having me on.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: You’re very welcome. And we’re going to talk politics, um, and, and your legacy, however humble you want to be about it today, but first, cause we start every interview with this now, how are you guys doing out there?
Naheed Nenshi: You know, uh, we’re doing okay. COVID is bad, uh, here in Alberta. The numbers are very grim, but at the same time, people are getting their vaccinations. Uh, there’s certainly not just a light at the end of the tunnel, but the tunnel is flooding with light. The only challenge now is to keep up our discipline. Uh, you don’t want to finish poorly. You don’t want to dance before you hit the end zone or any other number of terrible cliches. So we really want to make sure people are getting their vaccines, but they’re also keeping up all the good behaviors, wearing a mask, keeping your distance, staying [00:03:00] home when you can.
The good news is as we get more and more people vaccinated, things will start to get better. And I’m hopeful that business, uh, and everything else will be able to come back. But it’s not great at the moment.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: What’s it been like, um, guiding a city through something like this? It’s obviously, um, something you could never have predicted you would be leading a municipal government through and, and it must be, uh, all sorts of challenging, but also all sorts of rewarding, maybe. You guys have stepped up.
Naheed Nenshi: Well, you know, it’s interesting because in the long history of Calgary, 136 years, we have declared a state of local emergency exactly three times. And lucky me, I got to be the mayor for all three of them. So, if you had asked me back in 2010, you know, what I was expecting, I probably wouldn’t have said one disaster after another.
This one is different, of course, because it’s so much [00:04:00] longer, and modulating and managing my personal energy, but also the energy of the organization and of the community, has been very different than the stuff we’ve dealt with in the past. You know, in the flood, the flood waters peaked on Friday night, Saturday morning, and they were receding by Saturday night. Our state of local emergency lasted 14 days. The one we’re currently in will likely last 14 months.
So on the one hand that has been very challenging. On the other hand, I’m sorta made for this kind of thing. I like making decisions quickly and not having to deal with bureaucracy and just doing what is right and what is best in the moment. Uh, and so hopefully people appreciate that that is a skill I did not know I had, uh, but I’m happy to be able to do that.
Uh, the challenge of course, is with the whole community, everyone is exhausted and everyone has a right to be exhausted. It has been an incredibly rough year and a bit. But at the same time, we just [00:05:00] keep having to remind ourselves that all these sacrifices we’re being asked to make, all of these changes that we’re being asked to do are in the service of not just our own health, but in the service of everyone in the community. Which I think, uh, it’s easy to forget that because it’s easy to get caught up in the grief and the loss of everything that we don’t have, that we wish we had. And that’s okay. That’s just human. But it’s also human to look after one another. And I think that’s the critical piece that we have to keep reminding ourselves, even though we’re so tired and we all just want this to be over.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: How do you manage to lead people through that? You know, just from, from a leadership point of view, you know, you must be exhausted. Everybody’s exhausted. I know here, you know, in Ontario, um, people are just, it can, it can be a lot to continue to follow those regulations and continue to buy in and know that, you know, I’m doing this for the health of everyone around me and all of that is good, but it also [00:06:00] takes a real toll. And you know, how do you continue to drive people’s energy to focus on that?
Naheed Nenshi: It’s a lot, and certainly what we’ve seen in this community, and I think we’ve seen around the country, is that when we started, we all kind of cleave to that notion that we’re all in this together.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: Yeah.
Naheed Nenshi: That we’re not all in the same boat, but at least we’re all in the same storm. And we need to look after one another.
The challenge that we’ve got right now is that we live in a society that is increasingly divisive, increasingly angry, where waves of cruelty and meanness are just growing louder and louder and louder, if I can mix my metaphors. And that has played out in the pandemic response as well, you know, the anti-mask rallies in Calgary, or there’s not even a thin veneer anymore, they’re not even pretending to be about anything other than white nationalism, racism, divisiveness, and [00:07:00] that is extraordinarily frustrating.
And for a lot of people, they say to themselves, “Look, I’ve been doing all the right things all this time, I haven’t hugged my mom in a year. And these idiots are out on the street flagrantly putting other people at risk,” and that can lead to a lot of anger and a lot of backlash. And it frustrates me too. But I think what we have to remember is that those folks who are a tiny minority of what we’re really about.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: Well, I’ll use that to, to shift you away from COVID a little bit then, and start with the question that you’ve probably been asked a bunch, but why did you make the decision not to run again? Was three state of emergencies enough?
Naheed Nenshi: No, I still got a lot of energy. Um, I think I could still do it going forward, and it was a very difficult decision. You know, a lot of folks have thought had been quite cagey about not answering the question. The truth is, what I’ve been saying the entire time, which is, it was just really hard to make up my mind.
And I was really focused on two questions. Uh, the first [00:08:00] question is exactly the one we’ve been talking to. At this critical pivotal point in our history, is it wrong? Is it irresponsible for me to say, “Alright, I’m up,”, or to turn over the reins? And the second question I was really struggling with was: have I fulfilled that quiet promise I made to myself 10 years ago? You know, the promise that I’ve tried to do in everything in my life that my mom and dad drilled into me from a very young age, which is, am I leaving it better than I found it?
And so dwelling on those questions, I really thought hard about two things. The first is that if we’ve learned anything in this past year, we have learned that, even in a remarkably pluralistic place like Canada and like Calgary, there are many folks who just don’t feel heard. And there’s lots of voices out there, new voices, young voices, diverse voices that don’t feel like the system is representing them. [00:09:00] And sometimes it is the right thing to do, to make some space, to make some room for people. And it felt like the right time now.
And then I was also reminded that, on that very, very sweaty evening in October of 2010, when I was in that basement office, making that victory speech, the very first thing I said was, “Today, Calgary is different than it was yesterday. It’s it’s better than it was yesterday. And that’s not because of me. It’s because of you. It’s because of all of you, because citizens had chosen to take a risk, citizens had chosen to dare to dream of a different and a better future.” And it’s easy when you’ve been in a job like this for so long to feel like that was you. And for me, it was really important to remember that this country and the city are full of people who love this country. People who love the city, people who do heroic things every day to make it better. And I’ve been so lucky that [00:10:00] I’ve been able to be the voice for that, and sometimes the idea generator for that for all of these years.
But ultimately, though that work will continue, and people will continue, and I hope to be part of that story in some way or another. But I felt good about the ability of making that room for other people, ultimately.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: One of the reasons I was excited to talk to you is because I love talking to people who have presided over, um, you know, places or jobs or, or anything during a transitional time. So I guess I would ask you, you know, to go back to that, that basement, uh, office where you’re making a speech, what did you not know about Calgary when you got this job that you do now?
Naheed Nenshi: What a great question. You know, for the first few years, the most common question anyone ever asked me was, “What surprised you the most?” and I said, you know what surprised me the most is how little I was surprised. Um, I was sort of bizarrely well-prepared for this job before I got into it. [00:11:00] But, you know, even from the outside, you think, as much as you think you might know, things must be different on the inside. There must be some sort of expertise. There must be something that I’m not understanding about how decisions were made. And what I realized is that individuals can have a huge impact on the world around them, just by not assuming that answers are preordained. And so that was an interesting thing for me, because it’s the first time I’ve been really in politics, uh, in this job to really understand how you can influence even a very rigid government structure. So that’s sort of the technocratic piece.
The more fun piece about it is that pre, pre COVID, I could easily do 30 events every Saturday in every corner of the city. Learning really cool things that I never knew about the city before. And I would learn all the time. Like I had no idea that there was a very strong jump rope community here in Calgary of people who are really dedicated to get kids very good at jump rope. And they [00:12:00] go to the world championships. And that’s just one little example of incredibly interesting people doing stuff for community all the time. And I love that even someone who thought he knew every bus route in every street in the city was always still learning new things about what people were doing in the community. And that’s, that’s, that’s the best part of public service in my opinion.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: What about the job, uh, of being mayor itself? How has that changed over the past 10 years? I’m going to say pandemic aside, but just in terms of like looking at what a city needs, it feels to me, and maybe this is my Toronto talking, but it feels to me like big cities right now are kind of in a process of, of fundamentally asking themselves who they’re for, if that makes sense.
Naheed Nenshi: It totally makes sense. You know, so we actually live at the first point in human history where the majority of humanity lives in a city.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: I didn’t know that.
Naheed Nenshi: That’s never happened [00:13:00] before. And that pace of urbanization is only going to grow. So what we think of as urban issues are actually human issues. And we really, I don’t, I wouldn’t say we’re struggling because I think in Canada, we’re answering the question very well, but we’re working on what I think is the oldest question of humanity. And that question is, how do we live together? How do we share this land? And what does that truly mean?
And so the job of running a big city over these last 10 years has really changed quite a lot. You know, here in Alberta, certainly we’ve gone through a lot of economic distress. We’ve had to figure out ways to do more with less. We’ve taken a billion dollars out of our budget, uh, but tried to figure out ways to continue providing the services that people need every day. At the same, and you know, technology of course has been a huge part of it. People’s engagement has been a huge part of it. You know, when I first ran, politics here was [00:14:00] very rigid. Voter turnout was very low people, really thought of government as something that happens to them, not something that happens for and with them. And so for better or worse, mostly for better, we’ve seen a huge increase in people participating in their own city in their own futures. Which makes a big, huge difference.
But here in Calgary, you know, I, I often say that this last year we were going through five simultaneous crises and of the five, four of them were happening before the pandemic. So the first one is of course the pandemic, the public health crisis. The second is a mental health and addictions crisis, which was always there, but has been exacerbated by the pandemic. The third is an economic crisis. As our whole nation goes through a, a pretty wrenching transition of who we were to who we need to be, uh, as a small, but mighty nation, um, in the world. The fourth of course, is the environmental crisis and a [00:15:00] real reckoning on climate change. And the fifth is something that really came to fore last year, which is how do we move from a place that is very proud of its diversity, that is very pluralistic, that is very multicultural, a place that strives to not be racist, to a place that is truly anti-racist. And that’s a deep question with real implications for how we live together going forward and where cities are, where that all happens, because a, where people combine where people intersect, where people collide, and within the cities is where we have to be able to answer all of those questions.
And then finally for the political merits, listening to the show, um, as you know, cities have no constitutional standing in Canada. We are creatures of the provinces. But given the 80% of Canadians live in cities, the big cities over the last 10 years have really come into our own in our relationships, particularly with the federal government, [00:16:00] and understanding how we can work better with the federal government.
So I’m very, very pleased with the work the Federation of Canadian Municipalities has done in order to really put the urban agenda on the lens of the federal government. Now, if we could do that with our provincial governments, that would be even better.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: I’d love to hear a little bit more about that. Cause one of my notes down here, uh, is that I want to talk to you about, you know, the next 10 years in the evolution of Canadian cities. And, uh, certainly in Toronto, especially given the tension with our provincial government, there’s been a lot of talk about charter cities and, you know, larger municipalities taking, uh, governance into their own hands. And is that something you think we’ll see a further push for? Would you support that push? What is the future of that look like?
Naheed Nenshi: Well, let me just give you a sense of this. So the city of Calgary is larger than five Canadian provinces, and depending on how well the Jets do going forward in the Stanley cup playoffs, it’ll probably be larger than six Canadian provinces [00:17:00] by the end of this decade.
So cities are complex creatures, city governments tend, of the especially the larger cities, tend to be very sophisticated. However, our system is still written for sort of an agrarian society. And, you know, in Alberta, for example, uh, the areas outside of Calgary and Edmonton far outweigh in the legislature, uh, Calgary and Edmonton, even though Calgary and Edmonton are the majority of the population.
And so there’s kind of this systemic stacking of the cards, and charter cities or giving cities more power through the city charter is one real way of doing it, but it requires provincial governments to actually give up power, which is hard for them. So we actually did sign city charters for Calgary and Edmonton while I’ve been mayor and as Mayor Iveson of Edmonton often says, they were fun while they lasted. They still exist. We still have some new authorities, but they’re not making a huge difference [00:18:00] to citizens in their everyday lives because we got a new provincial government that just decided, frankly, not to take them very seriously.
And so that is the essential problem we always have. And I’m not advocating for constitutional change, I think that’s impossible. But I am saying that we can do a better job of reflecting real people’s needs because at the end of the day, this is something every politician will tell you. No citizen actually knows who is in charge of what. So I get calls daily about healthcare issues. Well, that’s a provincial responsibility. Um, I’m sure that the MLA’s get calls every day about a crosswalk in their neighbourhoods. Well, that’s a city responsibility.
But ultimately we’re all serving the same citizens. In a post-partisan kind of way, if we could just get our heads around the need for us to share the outcome, which is that every single person who’s lucky enough to be on this land deserves the life of dignity and a life of opportunity and a life of [00:19:00] prosperity. And they don’t care which order of government is bringing that to them. They care about how they can live that great life for the, for themselves and for their families. If we could only get ourselves to that point, I feel like we could work so much better instead of fighting for turf all the time.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: You’ve mentioned partisanship, um, a couple of times now. And I wonder, you know, as somebody, um, who, who ran on, uh, as a purple candidate, um, how you feel about partisanship in Alberta and in Canada as, as you leave office? It feels to me like it’s gotten much worse.
Naheed Nenshi: I think so. So I’m wearing a purple shirt today. That’s not particularly news cause I wear purple every single day, and have for 11 years. And that’s not because it brings out the colour of my eyes. It’s because it’s red and blue. And by the way, I say that all the time and to this day, 11 years later, even people in Calgary, all surprised going, “Oh, that’s why he wears purple every day.”
But [00:20:00] I’m trying to make a point. I’m trying to make a point that we can live beyond partisanship, that we’re all human beings. And that we don’t have to be red or blue or orange that we can all work together. And so, you know, it’s interesting when people have been asking me about my record, um, in that terrible question, what do you want your legacy to be? Which kind of makes me shiver even after trying to answer it so many times.
You know, people often talk about the social aspects of what I do, the stuff I’ve done to attempt to try and bring opportunity and dignity to people, to work with low-income people and racialized people and everyone else, uh, in this great big mosaic of Calgary. We rarely talk about the fact that I am a former management consultants and business professor, and we’ve done a ton of work on re-inventing how government works and how we deliver services. And I alluded to earlier taking a billion dollars out of our budget through more effective service delivery and reduced our overall debt by half a billion dollars. Uh, we [00:21:00] almost never talk about this stuff. And a lot of folks think, you know, well, that’s not what he’s about because he believes in all this softy wofty stuff.
I think it’s very easy to be able to create a thoughtful, I won’t say fiscally conservative, but fiscally wise government to reduce waste and try and focus in on how we can deliver services better while at the same time fighting for the dignity of people on the land. Uh, and the fact that that has been cleaved into partisan issues, the fact that, you know, the pandemic response somehow is partisan, I don’t even understand how that happened, is a real example of how unbelievably broken our system is.
And a lot of this has to do with the rise of technology and social media. You know, we, we sort of stopped talking about Cambridge Analytica and what happened there. But what actually happened there was the creation of safe spaces for people with hugely divisive views that they [00:22:00] couldn’t talk about in public company before, and now they can. And it’s a real shame,, in my mind that we’ve had political parties here in Alberta and across the country be seduced by that. And say things that they never would have said, uh, even five years ago, let alone 10 or 15 years ago, where we had sort of a broad political consensus in this country on what is, and what is not acceptable.
And for me, that is, that is very, very disturbing. We’ve had a ruling from a Quebec court on Bill 21. So we actually have a government in Canada which has said, “We are going to put forward a law, which is blatantly unconstitutional but we don’t care, that deliberately targets three sets of people, being Jewish men, Muslim women, and Sikhs who wear turbans,” and says, “You do not have the same rights as anyone else.” and we do not have a federal [00:23:00] government that’s willing to say, “No, you’re not doing that.”
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: Speaking of where that partisanship came from and social media and its influence on politics. I mean, you are one of maybe the pioneers in that space. You’re certainly one of the first politicians to win national notoriety on, on a viral campaign. And I wonder how you feel about, you know, the way that this all started for you, um, through use of social media and where, where you’ve seen it gone? And, you know, then there was Trump and now it appears that every election is fought predominantly, uh, on social media.
Naheed Nenshi: I mean, is it, or do we think it is? And I think that’s really-
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: Good question, yeah.
Naheed Nenshi: That’s the critical question that we’ve got to, we’ve got to sort out because, you know, way back in 2010, you know, I had been on Twitter myself for, I don’t know, five or six months, maybe, um, prior to deciding, to run for mayor. And [00:24:00] I started a campaign that didn’t have any money, but what we had was a lot of strategy and some of it was very old fashioned political strategy and that political strategy was: the number one rule of elections is don’t expect people to come to you, go to people where they live. That’s why you get candidates knocking on your door.
And what we realized in that campaign was we didn’t have the money to do a bunch of advertising or even signs, but we did discover that a lot of people lived online. And if we could connect with people who lived online, then we could have, ironically in 140 characters as it then was, we could have really authentic conversations with people.
And so that was not my whole strategy, but a part of my strategy. Uh, and, and if you really want to be let in on the political analysis behind that, it was simply that when you’re in any campaign, your big goal is to get the evangelist. It’s get the people whose friends phone them and [00:25:00] say, “Who should I vote for the night before the election,” talking about you. And we realized that a lot of those evangelists were online following politics online. And we could have great conversations with them. So that was just a part of the strategy, but it was a very helpful part of the strategy and it worked.
And then for years after that, you know, famously, I was the only one with the Twitter password. So if you were on Twitter, connecting with me, that was actually me. And, you know, I would retweet the lost dogs and cats. And I would get into conversations with people. Sometimes I’d be a bit snarky or a bit spicy with them. Um, and that was just all part of it. And, you know, I would spend an hour a day before I went to bed, responding to my various social media.
I hardly even look at Twitter anymore. You know, my campaign manager in that first campaign famously said, “Where other politicians use social media as a television, in other words, for broadcast, we use it as a telephone for conversation.” And I don’t even [00:26:00] bother anymore. It’s too much of a cesspool. Someone else has the password. They post, you know, that this week, the green cards are going back to weekly pickup. And we’ve lost that real connection in that real ability.
And the reason is simply that if someone actually asks me a genuine question, you know, what do you think about the green cards and why, why don’t you do weekly pickup throughout the year? And I answer it. Invariably someone else who might be a bot, might be a troll, might be a real person, will copy onto that conversation and just, you know, racist, nasty, abusive rhetoric, and that poor person who just had a question is copied on that. And their feed gets filled up with this garbage. And for me, it’s just not worth it anymore, which is really a shame. And I worry that those lost dogs and cats are not finding their way home. But ultimately, um, we need to find a new way to be able to have these conversations because I miss the conversations.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: That was going to be my last question for you is as, um, as you [00:27:00] leave office, assuming, uh, you know, and we’ll all knock on wood that, that Canada comes out the other side and the light keeps getting brighter. Um, what do you think we need to do to bring our political conversation back in that direction, uh, whether it’s online or offline?
Naheed Nenshi: Look, I know I sound hugely naive, but even after 11 years in this job, I am unbelievably optimistic. I’m unbelievably optimistic about Canada, about the notion of this place in what we have created here. Do we have an unbelievable amount of work to do? We have an unbelievable amount of work to do. Are we on a very uncertain journey, especially on the issue of anti-racism? Yes we are. But ultimately we’re going to get it right. In this place, we have gotten things right so much more than we have gotten things wrong.
And I look forward to being part of that conversation, you know, I’m so happy you didn’t ask me what [00:28:00] my legacy is. So thank you for not asking me that, but, um, but I’ll answer it anyway. No, I won’t answer it any way, but I will tell you that one thing I’m very proud of over the last 11 years is the fact that I feel like people think that this is a place for them. They belong here, that they could see a future for themselves and for generations of their family here.
And I jokingly say that I do a lot of school visits now during COVID by Zoom, which is awesome. I always did a lot, but now I can do even more because I just sit at my desk and talk to the students. And I was talking to some grade six students recently, and I realized that I have been mayor their entire life. And one of the questions that they had for me, that they were too shy to actually ask, that the teacher sort of mentioned, was that one of her students was wondering if it was possible for a white person to be mayor. And so the world has changed a little bit.
But ultimately I think that battle, that fight for dignity for [00:29:00] everybody, you know, that’s, I’ve been lucky enough to have a job and to have a voice just for a moment. To be able to be part of that. And that’s something that I hope to continue regardless of where I found myself. I want to be part of that story. I want to be part of the story of service to our community in a way outside of politics.
But ultimately I think that’s a fight that we all have to take on and we all have to recognize that our petty disputes and our deep rooted political differences are important to define the path. But ultimately the destination never changes. And whether you’re Conservative or Liberal or a New Democrat or anything else, if we don’t really believe in building a better community, a community that is environmentally and economically sustainable, but even more important, a community that really does believe in the inherent value of every human being [00:30:00] lucky enough to be here. And that we have, that each of us has a stake in every other one of us, that’s really what builds Canada.
And that’s what I hope that we will be able to get back to and we will be able to continue with, and I hope that our political system can sort of excise this tumour of, if you wear a different colour, you are not me and move towards a world where we say we can argue about government debt and deficit we can argue about whether universal old age security is better than low-income seniors’ specialized programs. We can have big debates about whether universal childcare brings dignity to women in the workplace, or if it actually is rewarding people who are already wealthy at the cost to people who are struggling to get by, those are great debates to have, and we should have those debates.
But we got to excise this tumour that just says, I’m totally opposed to everything you are because of who you are. We have to [00:31:00] excise this tumour that says, it is totally okay for me to denigrate you and your family personally and politically. We have to absolutely excise the tumour that says, now racism is okay, where it never was before. We have to excise the tumour that says it’s okay to attack women in public life in a way that you would never attack a man in public life because we got to do it all.
You know, I said that I want to make room for new voices, but it’s not going to work if the new voices won’t come because of the abuse that they’re going to feel. And so let’s get back to a world where we respect everyone who chooses to make a career in public life, chooses to make that sacrifice, and let’s work towards stronger solutions.
So do I sound Pollyannish? Absolutely. Do I sound naive? Of course I do. Is it possible? It absolutely is. And citizens are the ones who drive that. And we, as citizens are the ones who tell our politicians how to behave. And I hope that we’ll be able to do that.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: Mayor Nenshi, thank you for this [00:32:00] conversation. And, uh, I know you’re not running again, but that was a pretty good reelection speech if you ever wanna give it.
Naheed Nenshi: Uh, you know, I will find- maybe I’ll start a podcast. What do you think, Jordan? I gotta find some way to keep talking.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: Don’t come and take my job, please.
Naheed Nenshi: Do you need a co-host? Thank you very much. Best to everyone, please stay safe, stay disciplined, clean hands, clear heads, open hearts, wear your mask, wash your hands, keep your distance, do all of those things. Let’s finish strong and let’s come out of this better.
Jordan Heath-Rawlings: Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi. That was The Big Story, for more from us head to thebigstorypodcast.ca. Find us on Twitter at @TheBigStoryFPN. Talk to us anytime by email, thebigstorypodcast, that’s all one word, @rci.rogers.com [click here!]. And you can always head to your favourite podcast player, search for us, find us follow subscribe, like whatever it is you do.
Thanks for listening. I’m Jordan Heath-Rawlings. We’ll talk tomorrow. [00:33:00]
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